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Cameron/Beltran

Frayed Knot
Aug 11 2005 06:48 PM

[u:2f5652f317]Cameron[/u:2f5652f317]

Duquette: "alert, concious, moving"

Ed Coleman (a bit later):
- still hospitalized -- may accompany team to LA
- cut lip(s), maybe missing teeth,
- a bit groggy



[u:2f5652f317]Beltran[/u:2f5652f317]

EC:
- sore left shoulder, cuts on face,
- will go with team to LA
- no concussion - although doesn't remember the collision


And - just for good measure - [u:2f5652f317]Floyd[/u:2f5652f317]
- will get precautionary X-Rays on knee

Beenso
Aug 11 2005 06:59 PM

anyone else to add?

seawolf17
Aug 11 2005 07:03 PM

[u:8860a658d1]Mets Fans[/u:8860a658d1]

- starting to panic
- thinking that wild card race looks like a much longer shot than it did two hours ago
- hoping it's nothing serious

martin
Aug 11 2005 07:55 PM

the fan is saying cameron has fractures in his cheekbones i think it is, as well as his nose, and is definitely on the DL.

Frayed Knot
Aug 11 2005 08:03 PM

7:55 update (WFAN):

Cameron: Broken nose, fractures of cheek bone(s), slight concussion
Will remain in hospital overnight
Has been placed on DL - Diaz called up


Beltran:
Groggy, being taken for a CAT scan
Sore shoulder, cuts on left side of face


Floyd:
Sore knee - no official word.
Unlikely to start tomorrow

Nymr83
Aug 11 2005 08:35 PM

the thought of Diaz, Anderson, and Woodward/Williams being our starting outfield for even a day is scary. the thought of any but Diaz being in there more than a week is terrifying.

Edgy DC
Aug 11 2005 08:52 PM

Well, there's also Eric Valent, Brian Daubach (who won yesterday's game with a bases-loaded triple), Ron Calloway, Eric Brazell, Prentice Redman, and Angel Pagan.

But your greater implied point seems to be that the Mets have been too long operating without a backup major league outfielder ready to step into a starting role. True.

MFS62
Aug 11 2005 09:05 PM

Its Craig Brazell.
How soon they forget...

sigh

Later

cooby
Aug 11 2005 09:17 PM

Just watched this on this evening's rebroadcast. What a terrible scene

cooby
Aug 11 2005 09:23 PM

And now I just saw Cliffy get hit. Good lord...

Edgy DC
Aug 11 2005 09:32 PM

Of course.

Vat vas I thinking.

Edgy DC
Aug 11 2005 09:51 PM

Small mercy, but it looks like they hit face to face, rather than head to head, suggesting maybe the danger of fractures to the face (what Cammy ultimately seems to have) are greater than the dangers of fractures to the skull and potential brain injures.

Trying to think as positively as possible here.

Yikes.

ScarletKnight41
Aug 11 2005 09:53 PM

What scared me was seeing Cammie just down there, not moving at all, for all of those minutes.

cooby
Aug 11 2005 09:56 PM

I was glad to be watching it all after the fact; even though it still turned out very badly, watching it live must have been scary.

Beltran looked far worse than his injury list suggests, but I have been told by people who have gotten hit very hard on the head that the first thing you want to do is throw up, so I guess that is consistent with how he looked.

silverdsl
Aug 11 2005 10:05 PM

I saw the video of the collision a little while ago - absolutely horrible! As bad as it is that Cameron and Beltran were injured at all when I first heard about this on the radio, that Cameron had to be taken off on a stretcher with a neck brace I feared the worst. Very scary - so glad that Cameron's injuries weren't worse! Hopefully they both return to full health as quickly as possible.

metirish
Aug 11 2005 10:52 PM

I for what ever reason didn't know about the collision until I saw a scroll on ESPN, so I watched the replay of the game and I was shocked,it was just great to see Cameron moving his legs and arms while on the field, get well soon guys.

Johnny Dickshot
Aug 12 2005 08:15 AM

Horrific.

New leader on "Games I'm Glad I Missed, 2005"

Edgy DC
Aug 12 2005 08:21 AM

You have no idea.

Both cheekbones and the nose fractured for Cammie. The blow must've been bizzarely perfect (and unimaginably painful) to get both sides of his face like that.

Not something I talk about every day, but he's got some nice cheekbones too.

Looks like he's out for the year.

Edgy DC
Aug 12 2005 08:30 AM

Marty Noble does a heckuva job with a crappy story at MLB.com.

Yancy Street Gang
Aug 12 2005 08:55 AM

I was listening to Gary and Howie on the car radio when the collision occurred. (I still haven't seen a clip of the play; I don't plan to seek one out.) Listening to the description, I was afraid at first that Cameron had a broken neck and was paralyzed. All things considered, I'm glad he only ended up with a broken face.

They also said that Beltran was unable to lift his left arm above the shoulder. If he's now listed as day-to-day, I assume that he's gotten his arm mobility back.

I wouldn't be surprised if Cameron is done for the season, but I don't know that a September return is out of the question. Does anybody remember how much time Dave Parker missed after John Stearns broke his face?

Yancy Street Gang
Aug 12 2005 09:35 AM

Meanwhile, for the first time ever, George Theodore is the most popular UMDB lookup on August 11.

Coincidence? Of course not!

seawolf17
Aug 12 2005 09:38 AM

Yancy, the UMDB mirrors life -- no, is life. That's why it's worshipped the way it is.

Rotblatt
Aug 12 2005 10:07 AM

Terrible, terrible stuff. I'm so glad it's not worse . . .

Anyway, our lineup was embarassing before this, and now afterwards, it's going to be even more so, unless we make a change or two. There's NO WAY Woody or Cairo or Anderson should be starting regularly at 1B. We should've called Valent or Daubach up when Mientkiewicz went on the DL. I don't see how we can afford Williams AND all those middle infielders on our bench.

I'm assuming that Williams will play CF tonight, which is kind of a disaster, when you consider a lineup of:

Reyes, SS
Wright, 3B
Floyd, LF
Piazza, C
Diaz, LF
Cairo, 2B
Anderson, 1B
Williams, CF

Or, since this IS Willie we're talking about:

Reyes, SS
Cairo, 2B
Floyd, LF
Wright, 3B
Anderson, 1B (gotta have that L/R/L/R!!!)
Piazza, C
Williams, CF
Diaz, LF

That's like 3.5 legitimate threats in the lineup (giving Piazza only a .5). Cairo's got a good approach at the plate, but no one's scared of him, Diaz is young (albeit one with potential), Anderson's a scrub, and Williams is useless.

I would much rather have a 1B with at least the POTENTIAL for power, ala Valent (who is still tearing it up in Norfolk and managed a >.800 OPS for us not that long ago) or Daubach (if Petagine can get a shot on the defending WC Sox, then why can't Daubach, who has put up eerily similar numbers in Norfolk at a similarly advanced age?).

And frankly, I'd rather put Beltran on the DL as well and call up Pagan to fill in for him. Pagan's been fairly hot lately and has put up significantly better numbers than Williams (Pagan's at .267/.324/.400/.724 OPS for the season. He's also at the cusp of 100 K's, which is a little disturbing for a speedy guy--22 SB/9 CS--who doesn't have much power).

I mean, come on, doesn't this look better?

Reyes, SS
Wright, 3B
Floyd, LF
Piazza, C
Valent, 1B
Diaz, RF
Cairo, 2B
Pagan, CF

I'd take that lineup through the next 15 days, at which point, we can recall Beltran and send Pagan back down.

Oh, and for an update, the FAN kept saying that Beltran couldn't remember the hit last night, which is a little worriesome.

Frayed Knot
Aug 12 2005 10:25 AM

]Does anybody remember how much time Dave Parker missed after John Stearns broke his face?


As I recall it was only a day or two.
Of course when he resumed playing he was wearing a half hockey goaltenders mask.



P.S. Our "embarrassing" lineup is 5th in the league in runs scored.
And I'd prefer to leave the decision on whether Beltran goes to the DL to the doctors and staff.

Johnny Dickshot
Aug 12 2005 01:20 PM

Joe & Sid evidently had George Theodore as a guest this morning -- missed it, and the replay is not up on their website yet.

Rotblatt
Aug 12 2005 01:32 PM

="Frayed Knot"]
]P.S. Our "embarrassing" lineup is 5th in the league in runs scored.
And I'd prefer to leave the decision on whether Beltran goes to the DL to the doctors and staff.


You're no fun at all, FK. At any rate, I, at least, remain embarassed when I see our starting lineup and a corner OF or 1B slot has the name Woody, Anderson or Offerman in it.

They're fine subs for 2B or SS, but we should really be able to do better than them at 1B or OF. And we HAVE better in the minors, IMO, which is the frustrating part.

Anyway, I agree about the doctors deciding if Beltran can play, but I really don't want him playing through anything again. That didn't go so well the first time he did it, and I'd much rather see him get to 100% before coming back.

Maybe he's close to 100% now, but I'd be susprised if that's the case after seeing that collision--especially since he can't remember the hit. Nasty stuff.

PatchyFogg
Aug 12 2005 03:16 PM

Cameron needs surgery.

Beltran has a "slight facial fracture" that doesn't require surgery, but he does have a concussion.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2132583

SI Metman
Aug 12 2005 03:16 PM

The latest on Beltran is slight concussion. Piazza only missed 4 days (and only 1 game because of the ASG) when Clemens plunked him, so I wouldn't be surprised if Carlos is in center wearing an NBA style protective facemask on Tuesday against the Bucs.

soupcan
Aug 12 2005 03:29 PM

I heard some of the George Thedore interview.

Highlights were basically that he loves his 15 minutes, hopes nobody forgets about him now that Beltran/Cameron has eclipsed Theodre/Hahn

I didn't hear him comparing his collision with the one yesterday unfortunately but I caught these tidbits:

Best memory of being a major leaguer was playing with Willie Mays. Told an anecdote about how Willie caught a fly ball but didn't have the arm anymore to throw it in so Willie tossed it to an unsuspecting Stork to make the throw in. George, not expecting it, dropped the ball and the runners either advanced or scored. Theodore was given an error on the play. Said George: "I was and am honored to have that error." I thought that was a cool thing to say.

On how ihe got the nickname: "A minor league teammate gave it to me." No explanation, no elaboration. Weird. I'll take a wild stab at it George - could it be because you friggin' look like a stork?

On the '73 Mets: "We had a lot of injuries that year, that's why our record wasn't better than it was. When healthy we could've played with any team".

Johnny Dickshot
Aug 12 2005 03:53 PM

They didn't by chance ask him why he changed his uni number?

PatchyFogg
Aug 12 2005 04:14 PM

Does anyone else remember a collision where someone had to hold an unconscious Lee Mazzilli's tongue so that he wouldn't "swallow it." Or, was I just dreaming?

ABG
Aug 12 2005 04:17 PM

I hope it happened, cuz that's one helluva weird dream.

soupcan
Aug 12 2005 04:35 PM

Johnny Dickshot wrote:
They didn't by chance ask him why he changed his uni number?


Sorry pal, if they did I didn't hear it.

Frayed Knot
Aug 12 2005 04:37 PM

Patchy: see the 'Way-Back' thread for the Mazzilli collision, although I don't know if that's the same one you're thinking of (but how many could Maz have had?).


The biggest piece of information from the Stork interview is that Sid Rosenberg is the dumbest creature that still walks upright and has opposable thumbs (but you likely already knew that).
"So George, you're from Utah, are you a Mormon?"
GT: No
"oh, so you like drink and stuff?"

Edgy DC
Aug 12 2005 04:39 PM

...dumbest creature that still walks upright and has opposable thumbs (but you likely already knew that).

Whoah.

metirish
Aug 12 2005 04:40 PM

Sidiot really does boggle the mind, and it gets worse when football season starts, he's a huge Giants fan and resident "expert" on all things Giants for the FAN.

cooby
Aug 12 2005 05:09 PM

Anyone else remember the picture of George Theodore in his hospital bed, dressed in a hospital gown, his leg in traction, with a big grin on his face? I think he was doing a crossword puzzle.

What a great guy, now he is memorable

PatchyFogg
Aug 12 2005 07:47 PM

]"So George, you're from Utah, are you a Mormon?"
GT: No
"oh, so you like drink and stuff?"


Replace "Mormon" with some other religions (and change around Utah, too), and you got fire in a crowded theater stuff. But, once again, Sid skates.

cleonjones11
Aug 12 2005 10:32 PM
Theodore & Dave Schenck not Don Hahn

Contrary to what I've seen George Theodore collided with Dave Schenck...not Don hahn. The batter was Ralph Garr.

We will hear at some point that Cameron is not a "natural" right fielder and cammy may say CF or nothing...Get well soon.

Anyone think Beltran has the look of a man who is not real pleased or comfortable as a Met?

cleonjones11
Aug 12 2005 10:32 PM
Theodore & Dave Schenck not Don Hahn

Contrary to what I've seen George Theodore collided with Dave Schenck...not Don hahn. The batter was Ralph Garr.

We will hear at some point that Cameron is not a "natural" right fielder and cammy may say CF or nothing...Get well soon.

Anyone think Beltran has the look of a man who is not real pleased or comfortable as a Met?

metirish
Aug 12 2005 10:35 PM

Cameron is having surgery right now , 7PM local time in California, all the best Mike.

Frayed Knot
Aug 12 2005 10:41 PM
Re: Theodore & Dave Schenck not Don Hahn

"Contrary to what I've seen George Theodore collided with Dave Schenck...not Don hahn. The batter was Ralph Garr."

You're right about the batter, but it was Hahn, not Schneck.


"We will hear at some point that Cameron is not a "natural" right fielder and cammy may say CF or nothing.."

I doubt it. Collisions happen, and this one wasn't caused by anyone being out of position.


"Anyone think Beltran has the look of a man who is not real pleased or comfortable as a Met?"

No

soupcan
Aug 12 2005 10:55 PM
Re: Theodore & Dave Schenck not Don Hahn

cleonjones11 wrote:
Anyone think Beltran has the look of a man who is not real pleased or comfortable as a Met?


Not comfortable how? Because he's having a subpar year? Because he doesn't 'look' happy, pleased or relaxed?

If he was hitting well and still had the same expressions would you still say that he was uncomfortable?

He's not uncomfortable 'as a Met', he's been hurt and was probably putting a lot of pressure on himself. I'm sure this guy will get back to being the player we thought we were getting, if not before this season ends then next year for certain.

Now - about that friggin' mole on his face...

Johnny Dickshot
Aug 12 2005 10:57 PM

It was Don Hahn.

Edgy DC
Aug 12 2005 10:59 PM

I think Beltran's concussion has added an uncomfortable look to him.

ScarletKnight41
Aug 12 2005 11:01 PM

It certainly wouldn't add to his comfort level.

Centerfield
Aug 13 2005 12:36 AM

They say Carlos is on his way to the team hotel. No word on when we can expect him back.

The fact that they haven't given us a more solid ETA is getting a bit worrisome.

Frayed Knot
Aug 13 2005 12:42 AM

Willie talked before the game about how he'd join the team on Saturday, but almost certainly not play then and quite likely not on Sunday either.
They're off on Monday which points to a Tuesday return if all goes well.

What's good is that nobody's mentioning anything about the shoulder.
I suppose it's mainly a question now about how his head responds to work outs.

metirish
Aug 13 2005 12:54 AM

The guys on the radio made I think a good point, hockey and football has lot's of experience with concussions but baseball has not, the point Gary wanted to make was that the Mets should take all the time needed to make sure Beltran is OK and ready to play.

Rotblatt
Aug 13 2005 09:47 AM

Beltran's cheekbone has a "minor" fracture but he won't need surgery for it.

I really think we should put him on the DL and take our time with him. Maybe bring up Redman or Pagan . . .

ScarletKnight41
Aug 13 2005 08:00 PM

BTW, Greg and Jason did a beautiful job of discussing the collision [url=http://mets2005.myblogsite.com/blog]on their blog[/url]

Frayed Knot
Aug 14 2005 02:47 PM

DL still possible for Beltran:

He'll rejoin the team today in LA (but won't play) and then get another checkup in NYC on Monday. Apparently a surgical procedure - obviously less serious than the one on Cameron - is a possibility and would need to be done soon rather than after the season.

Cameron will remain hospitalized in LA, maybe for the balance of the week.

MFS62
Aug 14 2005 03:36 PM

According to Eddie C on the Fan this afternoon, the doctors who have examined Carlos say it requires surgery and has to be done within one week of the injury or not at all. He will be examined when the team returns to New York. If the docs agree with that diagnosis, he will have it done.

Later

Centerfield
Aug 15 2005 02:22 PM

Anyone listening to FAN? Do we know what happened with the doctors today?

ScarletKnight41
Aug 15 2005 08:13 PM

[url=http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050815&content_id=1171437&vkey=news_nym&fext=.jsp&c_id=nym]Beltran Is Considering Surgery[/url]

Centerfield
Aug 16 2005 09:22 AM

Well, this is good news...

Deputy GM Jim Duquette said the same day that the surgery - which Beltran preferred not to have - might not cause him to miss much, if any, time. He's officially listed as day-to-day, with a decision about whether he will undergo surgery expected as soon as today.

For what it's worth, I think he should get the surgery. Not trying to minimize the severity of going under the knife, but the last thing you want is permanent damage as a result of this collision.

Besides Carlos, when you get surgery they give you ice cream.

Yancy Street Gang
Aug 16 2005 09:26 AM

When I had surgery, all I got was Jell-O.

The broken bone is near his eye, isn't it? I think the main concern should be his vision. Would his eyesight be in greater jeopardy if he had, or didn't have, the surgery? Or is it not a factor? That's what I'd be asking the doctors if I was Carlos.

Frayed Knot
Aug 16 2005 10:56 AM

It's apparently a small "shift" in a bone between the ear & eye area (on the order of "a few millimeters"). If things slide back into place on their own then no surgery is needed. If they don't he'll probably undergo the procedure which is going to be somewhat along the lines of an arthroscopic operation rather than the more invasive deal that Cameron needed.

If he has the surgery he'll go on the DL obviously. Backdating it to last Friday he'll be available again as soon as a week from Saturday.

old original jb
Aug 16 2005 11:25 AM
Zygomatic Arch Fractures are potentially serious.

The fracture is reportedly in the zygomatic arch or cheekbone.
Depending on their extent and location, these fractures can effect configuration of the eye socket. Therefore, my sense is that it should be corrected if the surgeons feel strongly that they can do it without risk of causing worse damage. I would guess that if the approach to treatment is non-surgical, Beltran would have to be out for a while to let the fracture set by itself without getting jarred by additional trauma.

Frayed Knot
Aug 16 2005 06:07 PM

No surgery for Carlos, could play as early as Wednesday.

Rotblatt
Aug 16 2005 09:44 PM

Jesus. I think this is a terrible idea. He's going to wear a mask or something, apparently. Hopefully it won't impede his vision . . .

He pretty much won't be able to slide head-first, right? Or dive for balls?

Does this seem as retarded to everyone else as it does to me? I mean, Christ, Beltran, get the surgery, go on the DL for ten days. You've got six years to impress us, and this ISN'T the year we need you to be tough and gut it out.

He hasn't played much of a role in what success we've had to date, and it's allegedly because he hasn't been healty. So get healthy, Carlos, then come back.

Retarded.

Elster88
Aug 16 2005 09:50 PM

I agree with Rotblatt 1000%. I'd rather see Beltran sit the rest of the year out then do this.

soupcan
Aug 16 2005 09:50 PM

Man I have such a good non-pc joke that I could tell here.

In the meantime though I agree - stupid decision. Sit it out Carlos.

OlerudOwned
Aug 16 2005 09:51 PM

I'd be cool to see Beltran in one of these


If you can see a puck, you can see a baseball.

cooby
Aug 16 2005 10:03 PM

I was trying to explain to my husband what the surgery was and what the advantages of not doing it over doing it were or doing it over not doing it were, and I realized I didn't know.

So, what are the advantages one way or the other? If he doesn't do it, does it heal anyway? If he does do it does it heal better?

OlerudOwned
Aug 16 2005 10:05 PM

cooby wrote:
I was trying to explain to my husband what the surgery was and what the advantages of not doing it over doing it were or doing it over not doing it were, and I realized I didn't know.

So, what are the advantages one way or the other? If he doesn't do it, does it heal anyway? If he does do it does it heal better?
From what I understand, the surgery is intended to move the pieces of his face back into place quicker. But I guess they figure it will do that on its own quick enough.

Frayed Knot
Aug 16 2005 10:20 PM

Apparently it would be mostly a cosmetic procedure.
I guess it just needs to be protected while teh break is still "fresh".

seawolf17
Aug 16 2005 10:21 PM

Maybe he can have the surgery, and while he's in there, they can get rid of the thing on the side of his head.

cooby
Aug 16 2005 10:22 PM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Aug 16 2005 10:31 PM

="seawolf17"]Maybe he can have the surgery, and while he's in there, they can get rid of the thing on the side of his head.


Yep, I've been sitting here waiting for that one...


Cute pic of Alex, btw



Edited to add cute pic of Alex because it won't be there long

TheOldMole
Aug 16 2005 10:23 PM

OlerudOwned
Aug 16 2005 10:26 PM

He's no Drew Brees in the mole competition.

No, that isnt eyeblack

Elster88
Aug 16 2005 11:05 PM

soupcan wrote:
Man I have such a good non-pc joke that I could tell here.


Come on, you can tell it.

Rockin' Doc
Aug 16 2005 11:10 PM

The Zygomatic bone comprises the lateral wall and the temporal aspect of the orbital floor that supports the eye in the socket. Fractures of the inferior rim and floor of the orbit can cause severe visual problems in some cases. If the fracture is small, such that no muscle entrapment resulting in a restriction of ocular motilities or an inferior displacement of the eye occurs then it is generally best to allow such breaks to heal naturally. However, if a large break of the inferior orbit (blow out fracture) does occur, then surgical implantation of a teflon plate in the inferior orbit is generally necessitated.

A physical evaluation of ocular motilities and structural integrity of the orbit combined with X-rays/CT scan of the bony orbit surrounding the eye can easily determine whether surgical intervention is neccessary.

If Carlos is scheduled to return to the line up, then his fracture must be rather small and not causing any potential problems with his ocular capabilities. I still think he should take some time off, until the the fracture has had sufficient time to hea,l in order to reduce the risk of further damage to the bones .

Edgy DC
Aug 17 2005 12:02 AM

Yahoo, of all places, reporting that he is opting to pass on surgery.

Frayed Knot
Aug 17 2005 12:16 AM

]The Zygomatic bone comprises the lateral wall and the temporal aspect of the orbital floor that supports the eye in the socket. ... If the fracture is small, such that no muscle entrapment resulting in a restriction of ocular motilities or an inferior displacement of the eye occurs then it is generally best to allow such breaks to heal naturally.


I was just about to say exactly that!

KC
Aug 17 2005 07:14 PM

Very early in the broadcast, they announced that Lord Jeffie has authorized
a plane to bring Cammie and his family home. He's been released from the
hospital.

cooby
Aug 17 2005 09:37 PM

Beltran still looked a little puffy but it was good to see him playing again

cooby
Aug 17 2005 09:38 PM

How did my picture of Alex Trevino turn into someone else?

I can't do anything right

Edgy DC
Aug 17 2005 09:53 PM

C-Wolf has the same address for all his images. He changes images, all references to that address change.