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All this losing is wonderful

Bret Sabermetric
Aug 02 2005 04:10 AM

No, I'm not running down the last-place ha-ha-ha-ha Mets here (though I will ask Dickshot how that Sox-Mets analogy is working out), and I'm not writing about how delicious I'm finding this spate of noffense lately (it could use some mayo, honestly). but I'm being perfectly on the level.

The Mets' lousy play at the end of July saved this franchise.

It did.

If the Mets had edged just a tad closer to contention, into say 4th place, or having only two or three teams to climb over for a Wild Card, don't you think Omar would have made one of those stupid deals he's now saying were unwise and counter-productive? Of course he would have. Third place and a game out of the WIld Card, for sure.

The whole farm system, plus Heilman and Cameron, sacrificed for some AL slugger who would have come to Shea to find the fences far and visibility tough, and his OPS a shrunken remnant of what he remembered and the boobirds expected

Yay for Colorado and Houston.

Beenso
Aug 02 2005 08:07 AM

As much as I wanted to smash the wall when Colorado was embarassing them, you make a valid point. Yay for no trades

seawolf17
Aug 02 2005 08:17 AM

Yeah, because if the Mets had gone 5-2 on this road trip instead of 2-5, they'd be no worse than one game out of the wild card spot, and who wants that? I'd rather take a crapshoot with a bunch of 21-year-olds in 2008.

KC
Aug 02 2005 08:27 AM

>>>if the Mets had gone 5-2 on this road trip instead of 2-5, they'd be no worse than one game out of the wild card spot, and who wants that?<<<

Someone who predicted a bad 2005.

You can slice it anyway you want, but I'm very disappointed in a few players
who clearly could have contributed more and the Mets woud be leading in
the wild card race the way this division has panned out.

Saved the franchise? Oh, the drama.

Bret Sabermetric
Aug 02 2005 08:45 AM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Aug 02 2005 08:52 AM

It's apparently your opinion (misguided, delusional, loopy) that this team is much better than their W-L record shows at this point, and you seem to beileve that if the Mets had taken three of the games they lost on this trip, they are easily capable of winning enough games in August and September to make the playoffs.

What I'm saying, with all due respect, is that I'm seeing a seriously flawed roster managed by a rookie, playing at its own level or slightly above it. This would be the same ballclub, whether or not it caught a few breaks on this roada trip or not, and not one I'm envisioning in post-season play any time soon. Even if they'd added Manny, they're not going nowhere--because Manny isn't quite Manny in Shea, and you're not just adding Manny's park-adjusted numbers, you're subtracting Cameron's defense compared to Manny's defense, and of course you're subtracting Cameron's numbers from the lineup. It's a net gain of a game or two overtwo months, maybe. I wouldn't sacrifice a chicken for that advantage, much less the Mets' future.

Your mileage, of course, may and does vary.

OE: that was to Seawolf, not KC. I know KC takes it amiss when I characterize him as "delusional."

ABG
Aug 02 2005 08:45 AM

I'm not glad they went 2-5. I am glad that Omar realized this team is what it is--good enough to put together a nice run here and there, not good enough to sustain one long enough to get into the playoffs and not good enough that one player's gonna get us there.

I'm also happy to see this team take a long term big-market style view of keeping good prospects, signing good FA's and hopefully making only those trades they can't turn down.

Bret Sabermetric
Aug 02 2005 08:56 AM

ABG wrote:
I'm not glad they went 2-5. I am glad that Omar realized this team is what it is--.

You do realize that going2-5 was what enabled Omar to realize this team's potential, don't you? If they gone 5-2, or even 4-3, maybe Omar makes some bad deals for this franchise.

KC--you think it's not destructive for a franchise to swap its best young players for veterans who don't pan out and for post-season appearances that never come? If so, I disagree. Totally saved the franchise from a bad decade.

Not saying, of course, that they still can't find a way to have a bad decade, just that swapping out the future in July of 2005 wasn't it..

KC
Aug 02 2005 08:58 AM

I'm not starting in with you again. Sorry.

seawolf17
Aug 02 2005 09:03 AM

I want my team to win. Now, next year, and in 2020. I don't know that it makes me delusional.

ABG
Aug 02 2005 09:06 AM

]You do realize that going2-5 was what enabled Omar to realize this team's potential, don't you?

I do realize that's your opinion. I also choose to believe that Omar's 20 some odd years in baseball may have played some tiny, probably completely insignificant role in his realizing how good or bad his team was. Just tiny and insignificant enough it keeps me from rooting against the Mets.

Bret Sabermetric
Aug 02 2005 10:21 AM

KC wrote:
I'm not starting in with you again. Sorry.


Do you guys have membership cards, or can anybody join the club?

Rotblatt
Aug 02 2005 10:42 AM

Looking at the cold, hard facts, I DO think it's reasonable to say that we've played better than our record indicates. Our third-order expected W & L record is 57-48, or four wins better than we managed. That would put us at second in the division and tied with the Astros for the WC slot. So assuming we keep up our current pace of RS & RA (and our "luck" gets better), getting an extra 2 wins by having Manny might have been enough to compete this year.

On the other hand, we're NOT tied for the WC or in second place, so we have a lot of ground to cover. And can we really expect Floyd to keep it up? How about Wright, who's still a young player, after all? How about Pedro & Benson, who are both injury risks, or Hernandez, who's old as the hills? What about Zambrano, who looks to be pitching over HIS head?

Put it all together, and I think we were right to look into trading for Manny & maybe even Soriano, but we were also right not to go for it. The last deal on the table (from what I can tell) looks like it would have helped us this year but hurt us a lot down the road, and it would have done the opposite for Boston. And if getting shat on by Colorado & Houston helped management make that decision, I'm glad it happened.

I sincerely hope, however, that they took a cold and calculating look at our players, our stats and the other teams in the division and based a decision on what they saw, rather than on a six-game stretch in July.

I suspect that Sal's right, though, and that did play a role in their thinking . . .

cooby
Aug 02 2005 10:48 AM

Why are you still here? You are a Boston fan now

Willets Point
Aug 02 2005 10:50 AM

He has to save us from our Metsinfulness.

cooby
Aug 02 2005 10:58 AM

Well, he's not changing me or anybody else so he might as well give up and go to SOSH where he belongs.

Not that I read what he says anyway, I just happened to notice his lovely avatar and knew he was here. The 2500 word posts that I saw on my way down the thread led me to believe he was trying to make a pointless point again

Bret Sabermetric
Aug 02 2005 11:10 AM

Sometimes I think I'm the only person here who wants a winning Mets team someday.

cooby
Aug 02 2005 11:15 AM

Hardly! But I see no point in gnashing our teeth in the meantime. There is so much more to life


PS, thanks for the short post! :)

KC
Aug 02 2005 11:38 AM

>>>Do you guys have membership cards, or can anybody join the club?<<<

Just the type of stuff I don't have time or patience for these days. If you
weren't so busy wallowing in self-pity you might be able to see that I'm
just as much of an island most days here as you are. There are no mem-
bership cards for one poster clubs.

ABG
Aug 02 2005 11:41 AM

Post about the team, post about baseball, post about steroids, post about sports, post about music, post about literature, post about poltics, post about food, post about alcohol, post about economics, post about cartography, post about your friends, post about your family, post about religion, post about the meaning of life, post about nothing--just stop posting about yourself.

metsmarathon
Aug 02 2005 11:45 AM

damnit. i actually agree with sal. er, bret.

well, not so much on the extent of the hyperbole that in not making any trades we "saved the franchise" only that im glad we didnt make any rash moves. especially not for soriano, or that ridiculous manny/baez accumulation.

now, cammy/milledge for manny, i dont think would have ruined the franchise, and likely would have helped moreso than it would have hurted, but whatever. im happier that our farm system is intact than i would be if we had manny butchering baseballs both at the plate and in left field.

i think its exaggerating things to think that the 2-5 trip was the sole determining factor, but it sure didnt help anybody think that the events of last year would not repeat themselves in the wake of a big-splash deal this year.

... tho i would be EVEN HAPPIER if we had gone, say, 5-2, and still not made a trade, and there's no reason to think that we certainly would have, had that been our record.

Bret Sabermetric
Aug 02 2005 12:47 PM

ABG wrote:
Post about the team, post about baseball, post about steroids, post about sports, post about music, post about literature, post about poltics, post about food, post about alcohol, post about economics, post about cartography, post about your friends, post about your family, post about religion, post about the meaning of life, post about nothing--just stop posting about yourself.



Let's see, you fucking shit-for-brains, if we can recount what's gone on in this thread--I began by posting about the team, making a point that some people have even found to be a fair and reasonable one. Then came a post all about me--from KC, followed quickly by a post all about me--from Cooby, followed by yet another post all about me--from you, you fucking shit-for-brains.

Do me a favor, will you, please? If you want to lecture someone about how he should post, or what subjects are allowed for him to post, or what he should and shouldn't say in his posts, tell it it to yourself. Over and over and over again.

Or you could just reply to my posts about the Mets. If you can.

MFS62
Aug 02 2005 12:54 PM

Boyz Boyz Boyz (and Girlz)

Take it to the red light forum, please.
And let's get back to baseball here.

The idea that the Mets were in a deadline situation that meant they didn't mortgage their future in a rash move or two is ample fodder for discussion. And I agree with that position.

Later

ABG
Aug 02 2005 12:58 PM

Bret Sabermetric wrote:
="ABG"]Post about the team, post about baseball, post about steroids, post about sports, post about music, post about literature, post about poltics, post about food, post about alcohol, post about economics, post about cartography, post about your friends, post about your family, post about religion, post about the meaning of life, post about nothing--just stop posting about yourself.



Let's see, you fucking shit-for-brains, if we can recount what's gone on in this thread--I began by posting about the team, making a point that some people have even found to be a fair and reasonable one. Then came a post all about me--from KC, followed quickly by a post all about me--from Cooby, followed by yet another post all about me--from you, you fucking shit-for-brains.

Do me a favor, will you, please? If you want to lecture someone about how he should post, or what subjects are allowed for him to post, or what he should and shouldn't say in his posts, tell it it to yourself. Over and over and over again.

Or you could just reply to my posts about the Mets. If you can.

Clearly I was talking about your constant repetition of "Whoa-is-me" crap. And your "I need attention NOW!!!" avatar. And I did address your point about the Mets, if you bothered to read. But every thread you start or post in has to eventually become far more about you than the subject at hand, and it's just plain fucking annoying me.

KC
Aug 02 2005 01:48 PM

Just throw this into that corner over there with the other ones. No, not that
corner, the corner over there with the pile three quarters up to the ceiling.

>>>Then came a post all about me--from KC<<<

KC: Mets comments followed by, "Saved the franchise? Oh, the drama."

>>>KC--you think it's not destructive for a franchise to swap its best young players
for veterans who don't pan out and for post-season appearances that never come?<<<

KC: "I'm not starting in with you again. Sorry."

>>>Do you guys have membership cards, or can anybody join the club?<<<

KC: Just the type of stuff I don't have time or patience for these days.