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Not Just Viagra ...

Frayed Knot
Aug 01 2005 09:46 AM

WFAN: MLB set to announce within the hour that Raphael Palmiero hs tested positive for steroids.

Edgy DC
Aug 01 2005 09:48 AM

Slam!

Johnny Dickshot
Aug 01 2005 09:58 AM

holy career crisis, batman.

Johnny Dickshot
Aug 01 2005 09:59 AM

Let's hope they catch Giambi too

soupcan
Aug 01 2005 10:01 AM

I'm stunned.

Stunned at his stupidity mostly. Not surprised that he takes 'roids, just at the fact that continued to do so after everything that happened surrounding the allegations against him.

What's next - McGwire, I-Rod and Sosa testing positive?

Stop the freaking presses.

Frayed Knot
Aug 01 2005 10:05 AM

Ahh, it's no big deal.
So he comes out looking like the slimey one in a contest between him and Jose Canseco. It's not like it's going to cost him his reputation, a shot at 600 HRs plus the Hall-of-Fame or anything. Oh wait ...


Oh yeah, and it brings a lying to Congress charge into play.

Edgy DC
Aug 01 2005 10:07 AM

Some top players of the passing era:

Bonds: Not officially proven, but established
McGwire: Not officially proven, but established
Palmeiro: Proven
Canseco: Acknowledged and proud.
Camininti: Proven
Sheffield: Not officially proven, but established, and he's been more frank than Bonds.
Giambi: Not officially proven, but seriously established.
Sosa: Not established, but highly suspected, and besides was caught corkin'.
Clemens: Highly suspected.
Piazza: Suspected.

Most Everybody who Starred in Texas: Suspected.

Forget Coors. Walker and Helton may make the Hall of Fame just by making it through their careers untainted.

Those two NPR guys still weren't funny.

Rotblatt
Aug 01 2005 10:09 AM

Is Piazza seriously supsected by MLB at large, or just by nervous fans like us? At any rate, if we're including Piazza, we have to include Nomar.

Centerfield
Aug 01 2005 10:16 AM

Wow. How dumb to you have to be to continue juicing now.

Edgy DC
Aug 01 2005 10:24 AM

I'm speaking generally. I guess, though, I'm speaking more specifially about my own suspicions, and I don't really care as much about Nomar.

Obviously everybody's a suspect. I threw in Piazza because of a high level of stardom, a famously scupted physique, and some disappointing answers when questioned on the issue. I guess Nomar rises to his level of suspectedness. I don't know.

Those Diamondbacks who got great mid-way or late in their careers --- Luis Gonzalez, Steve Finley, Jay Bell. All were better in their thirties than their twenties. I guess they rise to that level of suspect also.

Elster88
Aug 01 2005 10:29 AM

]some disappointing answers when questioned on the issue.


I don't remember these. Which Q&As are you referring to?

ABG
Aug 01 2005 10:38 AM

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2121659

Confirmed.

Palmeiro has bigger issues than the suspension, however. He may very well be in contempt of Congress for his testimony before the Committee.

soupcan
Aug 01 2005 10:40 AM

="Edgy DC"]Some top players of the passing era:

Bonds: Not officially proven, but established
McGwire: Not officially proven, but established
Palmeiro: Proven
Canseco: Acknowledged and proud.
Camininti: Proven
Sheffield: Not officially proven, but established, and he's been more frank than Bonds.
Giambi: Not officially proven, but seriously established.
Sosa: Not established, but highly suspected, and besides was caught corkin'.
Clemens: Highly suspected.
Piazza: Suspected.


I think you could state that Giambi is 'proven'.

Piazza? I've never even heard his name mentioned as a suspect. He was great in his twenties and early thirties, got hurt and then aged as his numbers declined. Seems pretty sensible and natural for a catcher.

I've suspected Clemens but assumed that because he continues to excel and he must of course stopped juicing now if in fact he ever did that he's all natural.

Silly me for assuming that the suspected guys must have stopped.

seawolf17
Aug 01 2005 10:49 AM

It's going to be fascinating to see how this plays out. This is an epic disaster for MLB. The one guy who actually didn't come off looking like a moron at the hearings becomes the highest-profile roidhead? Wow.

Can we put Dave Kingman in the HoF now?

ABG
Aug 01 2005 11:04 AM

seawolf17 wrote:
It's going to be fascinating to see how this plays out. This is an epic disaster for MLB. The one guy who actually didn't come off looking like a moron at the hearings becomes the highest-profile roidhead? Wow.

Can we put Dave Kingman in the HoF now?

The biggest disaster for MLB would be if the tests were proven to be false or the suspension was somehow overturned. That would've completely ended MLB's credibility on steroids and potentially every other issue. Reading and looking at the process, it seems as though they got all their ducks in a row prior to the announcement. Smart play.

Edgy DC
Aug 01 2005 11:05 AM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Aug 01 2005 12:19 PM

Well, Giambi, like Bonds and Sheffield, is indicted by poorly sealed leaked evidence, and has no failed test or suspension with MLB. Yet we all know the truth, so that's why I distinguish between proven and established.

Piazza, when asked about players who have been caught --- rather than be happy that someone has been caught who has been cheating in competition with him while he's playing fairly --- has lamented that people aren't going to appreciate how hard it is to hit a baseball, juice or no juice, and has even argued (absurdly) that steroids don't really help you hit.

I'll see if I can find a link.

Edgy DC
Aug 01 2005 11:27 AM

Here's a typical exchange. He's acquitted himself more poorly than this, though.

PLAYBOY: Some people claim that Bonds is on steroids.
=blue]PIAZZA: That's a broad brush. In the past couple of years a few guys have done amazing things, and because everybody lifts weights, people say it's steroids. But hitting isn't just strength. If it were, you would have Mr. Olympia contestants coming off the stage and hitting homers.

PLAYBOY: A lot of hitters look like Mr. Olympia contestants.
=blue]PIAZZA: And a lot of pitchers aren't doing the job. Some of them give up on getting guys out. They're thinking, I don't care if I make a good pitch -- if the guy's on steroids, he'll hit it out of the park.

PLAYBOY: You're blaming the pitchers?
=blue]PIAZZA: I am not denying that some guys use steroids. But when you see a lot of home runs, it's not just steroids. It's the way the game is changing. There's so much emphasis on power. Guys are working out and getting strong, and homers are bound to go up. You've got leadoff hitters who aren't ashamed to strike out 100 times a year, because hitters get paid for homers and RBI, nothing else. "Oh, I struck out 100 times and hit .250, but I hit 30 homers. That's good for $ 6 million or $ 7 million a year." Nobody cares if you get the runner from second to third with no outs.

PLAYBOY: Baseball now has a steroid-testing plan. It's more of a survey, really. The players union says it wants to see if there's a problem before any serious testing starts.
=blue]PIAZZA: It's a first step. But once you open that door, where does it end? Some guys drink a pot of coffee before a game. Is that performance-enhancing? Guys have used greenies -- amphetamines. It's amazing how selective enforcement can be. Painkillers don't carry the same sort of stigma, but they can be abused. Teams are worried about steroids, but they'll load up a pitcher with an anti-inflammatory so he can pitch.

Rotblatt
Aug 01 2005 11:32 AM

Wow. Playboy asking the tough questions . . . Who knew?

Elster88
Aug 01 2005 11:33 AM

]Palmeiro has bigger issues than the suspension, however. He may very well be in contempt of Congress for his testimony before the Committee.


I don't know if this is necessarily true. Assuming he's willing to lie again, he could say he never took steroids until after his Congressional hearing, so when he said at the time that he took steroids he wasn't lying.

Obviously anyone with half a brain would see through this, but could it be legally possible to use this line of reasoning to stay of trouble? Can one of the CPF legal team comment?

He also used the word 'intentionally' in that hearing. Maybe that can keep him out of more legal trouble.

Johnny Dickshot
Aug 01 2005 11:39 AM

Piazza should play tennis, he's so good at making creative returns. One response of his I recall was along those lines:

"They should make a drug for your eyes, that's what would help a hitter."

Yeah, he's a suspect in my mind, but so is everyone. Although the especially obvious ones to me is anyone who played for either Texas team, Oakland and San Diego.

ABG
Aug 01 2005 11:39 AM

I really think only someone reading with a pre-established "Piazza is on steroids" comes away thinking that that article is evidence of his juicing.

I'd be interested to know when that exchange took place. Until recently, other than Schilling, how many guys were taking a different line than the one Piazza gave in that interview?

Edgy DC
Aug 01 2005 11:41 AM

Here's a silly answer from 1997 after being asked about the desireability of increased drug testing:

]"I think it's unnecessary in baseball. I mean, would you drug-test billiard players or chess players? You can take a .200 hitter and give him all of the drugs you can find, and would that make him a .300 hitter? No."


That was the year Ken Caminiti, later acknowledged as juiced-to-the-gills, bumped his slugging percentage up by 108 points and beat Piazza for the MVP award.

Nobody really follows up on those evasions with direct "Do you do it?" questons. The only denial I can find also comes from 1997:

]"They don't have to worry about me. When I was born, I broke the mold, and then they beat the heck out of the mold maker."

seawolf17
Aug 01 2005 11:42 AM

Everyone is suspect again. In fact, this Palmeiro news even casts doubt on the guys like Brian Roberts who have suddenly developed a power stroke. The media have said things like "at least you know Brian Roberts is clean, since testing is so prevalent now." Well, guess what? Roberts and Palmeiro share a locker room. And so have a lot of other guys.

Note: I'm not implying I personally question Roberts' early-season power stroke, I'm just saying that for all MLB's rhetoric, this problem hasn't gone away one iota.

Edgy DC
Aug 01 2005 11:45 AM
Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Aug 01 2005 12:30 PM

]I really think only someone reading with a pre-established "Piazza is on steroids" comes away thinking that that article is evidence of his juicing.


I didn't say that article was evidence of his juicing, nor do I have any pre-established, or established, position on whether he uses.

My position is that he historically acquits himself poorly by downplaying the effect of steroids, despite reams of evidence to the contrary. That interview was just one case.

silverdsl
Aug 01 2005 12:21 PM

="seawolf17"]Everyone is suspect again. In fact, this Palmeiro news even casts doubt on the guys like Brian Roberts who have suddenly developed a power stroke. The media have said things like "at least you know Brian Roberts is clean, since testing is so prevalent now." Well, guess what? Roberts and Palmeiro share a locker room. And so have a lot of other guys.
A lot of fans seem to think that the stronger drug testing means that no players are using performance enhancers - obviously not and Palmeiro is proof of that. But also players can go on their merry way using HGH, greenies and designer steroids that they know are undetectible because the urine test wouldn't pick those things up. There will probably always be some players using performance enhancers.

What amazes me more than him putting on that performance in front of Congress is his claim that he has no idea how the steroids got in his body. Please don't insult our intelligence - obviously he took them in some way shape or form. At least use the suppliments/vitamins/snake oil line of BS that other players have used as an excuse.

Johnny Dickshot
Aug 01 2005 12:34 PM

What amazes me more than him putting on that performance in front of Congress is his claim that he has no idea how the steroids got in his body

Known hereafter as "The Sheffield Gambit."

ABG
Aug 01 2005 12:50 PM

]My position is that he historically acquits himself poorly by downplaying the effect of steroids, despite reams of evidence to the contrary. That interview was just one case.

And my position is that his statements are completely in line with what players around baseball have been saying, which indicates to me only that he knows how to read MLBPA talking points.

Edgy DC
Aug 01 2005 01:04 PM

Still acquitting himself poorly --- whether it suggests he's a suspect, an idiot, or a toadie complicit in other players' abuse.

ABG
Aug 01 2005 01:07 PM

Edgy DC wrote:
Still acquitting himself poorly --- whether it suggests he's a suspect, an idiot, or a toadie complicit in other players' abuse.

By your logic, every ballplayer other than Curt Schilling is a suspect, an idiot or a toadie.

Edgy DC
Aug 01 2005 01:13 PM

Well, if so, I wouldn't be the first person in this thread to say that all players from the current era are suspects. But there certainly are players who haven't tried to convince me that steroids don't actually help players.

SwitchHitter
Aug 01 2005 01:38 PM

Everyone's a suspect in the sense of I-can't-tell-by-looking-and-I-know-some-are-doing-them sense, but that's not the same as suspecting everyone. It's a subtle distinction that some folks can't be bothered to make. I'm pretty sure my team's light-hitting SS isn't 'roiding, for example, but I can't be definitely certain. And some folks are more suspect than others. There's a story goes 'round the 'net about my team's regular 3B. Some folks believe it and some folks don't, but it's a good story, in that it's coherent and internally consistent.

MFS62
Aug 01 2005 04:15 PM

From what I've been hearing from callers on WFAN and ESPN radio who claim to be Lawyers, the burden of proof rests on the ability of the court (Congress?) to prove that he had taken steroids prior to have given that testimony. Given whay I;ve read about how long steroids remain in the body, the test results announced to day would have meant that any steroids he took would have been after he gave that testimony.

(Back to the thread title) Maybe his performance anxiety extended beyond the bedroom.

Later

Rockin' Doc
Aug 01 2005 05:39 PM
Story as reported at MLB.com

Palmeiro suspended 10 days by MLB
Orioles slugger denies steroid use, begins suspension
By Gary Washburn / MLB.com

BALTIMORE -- Orioles first baseman Rafael Palmeiro was suspended Monday for 10 days by Major League Baseball for violating its Joint Drug Prevention and Treatment Program and began serving the suspension immediately.
Palmeiro, 40, is the highest-profile player to test positive under the current policy adopted earlier this year. He reached the 3,000-hit plateau on July 15, becoming the fourth player in history to accumulate 3,000 hits and 500 home runs. He has 569 career homers and has been considered a strong candidate for induction into baseball's Hall of Fame after he retires.

He became the fourth player in Major League history to amass 3,000 hits and 500 home runs, joining Hank Aaron, Eddie Murray and Willie Mays.

On March 17, Palmeiro vehemently denied in front of a House Subcommittee in Washington, D.C., that he used any performance-enhancing drugs. Palmeiro, along with teammate Sammy Sosa, Mark McGwire and Jose Canseco, were called to testify after Canseco wrote in his book: "Juiced: Wild Times, Rampant 'Roids, Smash Hits, and How Baseball Got Big" that he injected Palmeiro and McGwire with steroids while he was their teammate.

Palmeiro learned of the oncoming suspension recently and appealed it through the Players Association, but the Major League Baseball Arbitration Panel denied his appeal.

"I told the truth, and today I am telling the truth again that I did not do this intentionally or knowingly," he said in a conference call. "I hope the fans understand that I worked very hard over a long 20-year career. I put in a lot of time and a lot of effort in my career. I made a mistake and I am facing it. I hope people learn from my mistake and I hope the fans forgive me.

"I went in front of Congress and I was honest with Congress. There's no absolute reason for me to do anything at this stage of my career. There's nothing for me to gain and everything for me to lose. I knew I was approaching 3,000 hits. I was not about to put everything on the line, my reputation and everything that I've worked for so hard in my life to do anything like this. It just makes no sense."

Palmeiro and the Orioles released a statement before the conference call.

"At the outset, let me say that under the rules of the basic agreement and the order of the independent arbitrator, there is an order of confidentiality governing the specifics of this case," Palmeiro wrote. "I will attempt to state as much as I can and be as forthright as possible, but there will be issues I can't address based on orders imposed on me by the basic agreement and the arbitration process. I am here to make it very clear that I have never intentionally used steroids. Never. Ever. Period.

"When I found out that I failed a test under the new drug policy, I filed a grievance and challenged the suspension on the basis that I have never intentionally taken a banned substance. Ultimately, although I never intentionally put a banned substance into my body -- the independent arbitrator ruled that I had to be suspended under the terms of the program."

Palmeiro said he does not have an explanation for the positive test.

"I am sure you will ask how I tested positive for a banned substance. As I look back, I don't have a specific answer to give. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to explain to the arbitrator how the banned substance entered my body. The arbitrator did not find that I used a banned substance intentionally -- in fact, he said he found my testimony to be compelling -- but he ruled that I could not meet the heavy burden imposed on players who test positive under the new drug policy."

Palmeiro said he will accept his suspension.

"I want to apologize to MLB, the Baltimore Orioles organization, my teammates, and most of all, my fans. Given my role with the No Tolerance Committee and my relationships with Congress, I feel the need to communicate a serious message to my fellow players and to kids everywhere. All of us have to be responsible and exercise extreme care in what we put in our body. I hope that all MLB players and kids will learn from what has happened to me. I have never intentionally used a banned substance, but I unfortunately wasn't careful enough."

Orioles owner Peter Angelos offered his support to Palmeiro in a statement.

"I am truly saddened by today's events," Angelos said. "I have known Rafael Palmeiro for many years. He is a fine person, a great player and a true asset to his community. I know from personal experience that his accomplishments are due to hard work and his dedication to the game.

"I know that Rafael will accept the penalty under Baseball's important Drug Policy and that he will return to be a productive member of the Orioles."

Vice president Mike Flanagan also issued a statement, saying the club will miss Palmeiro.

"I am obviously disappointed to hear the news of this suspension," Flanagan said. "Raffy has been a friend of mine for many years. He is one of the most dedicated and hard-working players in baseball. I know he would not violate the rules intentionally. I look forward to his return. We will surely miss him and his contribution to the club."

Palmeiro said players and kids need to know the risks of being unaware of what substances they take.

"You just have to be careful with what you take," he said. "You have to make sure you see a doctor. You have to make sure you are taking supplements from a reputable source and be very careful with what you take. It happened to me and it can happen to anyone."

Palmeiro said he put in a call to Sen. Tom Davis (R-Va.) and will attempt to reach Congressman Henry Waxman (D-Ca.), who were both members of the Subcommittee and were working with Palmeiro on a no-tolerance drug program in baseball.

Because of the confidentiality agreement with MLB, Palmeiro could not reveal when he tested positive or filed the appeal.

"I can't talk about when I learned about it but I can talk about that, yes, it is an embarrassing situation," he said. "It's very unfortunate this had to happen to me, especially this year thinking it was going to be my last year and knowing I was going to get to 3,000 hits."

Meanwhile, Palmeiro's legacy is now in question. He said he realizes his numbers are now under scrutiny and there could potentially be a cloud over his career and his chances for the Hall of Fame.

"That's really not for me to determine," he said. "I hope that people look at my whole career and appreciate that I've given everything that I've got. I respect the game. I respect my opponents. I respect the players that came before me. I respect the Hall of Fame. If they think I'm worthy enough, I would be very honored. If they don't I gave it all that I had for this game."

Gary Washburn is a reporter for MLB.com. This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.

Bret Sabermetric
Aug 01 2005 06:27 PM

You know, I can't tell which makes me madder: this kind of self-serving, confused (and confusing) cockamanie apology, or whole Bonds/Sheffield brand of "I-din't-do-nuthin, them-that-say-I-did-lie, and-you-ain't-man-enough-to-judge-me-anyway" arrogance.

What say you? Phony b.s. apology, or Innocent-til-proven-guilty-490-times thuggery? Which would you rather hear?

SwitchHitter
Aug 01 2005 06:40 PM

What if, say, Viagra use, results in a positive test? It's possible, though unlikely, that he's on the level.

metsmarathon
Aug 01 2005 07:27 PM

i'd be surprised if the players were stricly forbidden from disclosing what they took that got them to register a "false" positive...

if i were palmiero, and i were not juicing, would submit whatever the hell i think i took that merited me a positive hit, and submit it to any testing agency i could identify, and disclose the results of the seemingly legal and aboveboard product that sullied my good name.

if i were not juicing, that is...

Bret Sabermetric
Aug 01 2005 08:35 PM

SwitchHitter wrote:
What if, say, Viagra use, results in a positive test? It's possible, though unlikely, that he's on the level.


So he's apologizing to Baltimore fans about being falsely accused of taking something he's never touched in his life? Please.

MFS62
Aug 02 2005 05:38 AM

Switch,
One of the radio "expert" callers addressed that , too.
The person said that Viagra does not produce a steroid positive test result.

I believe Raffy when he asks (I papaphrase) "Why would I be stupid enout to take something illegal, considering my statement to congress, I know thay're testing, and all I have to lose?".

But I can see how it can happen. If he got an insect bite or poison ivy and put an over the counter Cortisone cream on it to stop the itching, I believe it could produce a positive test result. It could be something as innocent as that.

Later

Rotblatt
Aug 02 2005 05:50 AM

BP answers some questions.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=4287

86-Dreamer
Aug 02 2005 07:06 AM

thanks for link - that was very informative.

Apologies if this has been asked and answered before, but does anyone know if disabled players are subject to testing as well? It seems obvious that it should include everyone, but you never know what MLB and the PA will negotiate. Given that the Palmeiro announcement coincided with Bonds' disclosure that he will sit out the rest of the year, I imagine there are plenty of people alleging that he is sitting out in order to avoid testing.

seawolf17
Aug 02 2005 07:21 AM

I think Bonds has been tested; I remember a story to that effect a few months ago. Everyone in the union is a part of the random testing, I'd think. I don't think anyone's insinuated that Bonds has avoided testing with this injury.

86-Dreamer
Aug 02 2005 07:36 AM

thanks seawolf. I have not heard anyone in media say that Bonds' has avoided testing via his injury, but the doorman in my office building made the allegation when I chatted with him this morning, and while I strongly believed he was wrong, I did not have the facts to dispute his claim.

silverdsl
Aug 02 2005 08:21 AM

It might not have come up in the media but it seems to be a widely held belief among fans that Bonds' isn't really seriously injured and he's just sitting out the season to avoid having to be tested. Personally, I think that's unlikely because as noted he's probably being tested anyway but besides that at his age he can't really risk sitting out a season since it will be harder to pick up where he left off than for a younger player.

Forgive me if this was mentioned in this thread previously and I missed it but apparently it's being reported that Palmeiro actually tested positive way back in May but the process of filing a grievance and going through arbitration prevented the positive test results from being released sooner. Maybe Palmeiro is the only player in that situation but it does make one wonder if MLB and the players themselves know about other positive drug tests and we don't yet know because they are also going through a drawn out arbitration.

Edgy DC
Aug 02 2005 08:43 AM

Well, the conspiracy theory would hold that Bonds' status, and the potential crippling effect taking him down would have on baseball, led to a negotiated agreement that he would sit out a season --- as an effective suspension --- voluntarily, based on the cover story of his choice. MLB would then spare him a public outing.

Such a story has been floated about Michael Jordan's initial retirement for years.

What we do know now is that MLB is not allowing the suspensions to be served without explaining why, as initially suspected in some quarters. Instead, the explanaition is just vague enough to allow the player moral wiggle room.

Frayed Knot
Aug 02 2005 08:47 AM

Wouldn't it be funny (sort of) if he needed the Viagra because of the steroids?



]But I can see how it can happen. If he got an insect bite or poison ivy and put an over the counter Cortisone cream on it to stop the itching, I believe it could produce a positive test result. It could be something as innocent as that.


Not bloody likely (as they'd say in merry ol England).
As mentioned in that BP link - and also by our resident medical guy 'Original JB' when I asked him about this very thing at lunch last March - the MLB list of banned substances is very narrow and there's a considerable difference between prescribed cortisone and performance steroids. In other words, it's virtually impossible to get them mixed up.



Palmiero's story du jour - that he took something but didn't realize that it contained something illegal - is certainly possible. If true it's still his responsibility and shouldn't keep him from the suspension/fine penalty, but it would help to label him and somewhat careless and dense as opposed to a hardcore cheater and liar.




Bonds was tested earlier in the year - or so it's been reported. I've heard lots of speculation (all of it uninformed) that he's sitting out to mask his continued use and that his announcement that he'll likely miss the season is somehow connected to the Palmeiro flap. Those angles don't make sense or hold water.

ABG
Aug 02 2005 08:50 AM

Edgy DC wrote:
Well, the conspiracy theory would hold that Bonds' status, and the potential crippling effect taking him down would have on baseball, led to a negotiated agreement that he would sit out a season --- as an effective suspension --- voluntarily, based on the cover story of his choice. MLB would then spare him a public outing.

Such a story has been floated about Michael Jordan's initial retirement for years.

What we do know now is that MLB is not allowing the suspensions to be served without explaining why, as initially suspected in some quarters. Instead, the explanaition is just vague enough to allow the player moral wiggle room.

Well yeah, 'cept under that particular conspiracy theory the Giants are still on the hook for the $18 mill or so they are paying him (and can't exactly afford to throw away) whereas the Bulls got off cheap.

Edgy DC
Aug 02 2005 08:56 AM

True enough.

I'm not really giving much credence to either theory. If Bonds is part of conspiracy theory, it probably is contained within his person.

seawolf17
Aug 02 2005 09:02 AM

="Frayed Knot"]Palmiero's story du jour - that he took something but didn't realize that it contained something illegal - is certainly possible. If true it's still his responsibility and shouldn't keep him from the suspension/fine penalty, but it would help to label him and somewhat careless and dense as opposed to a hardcore cheater and liar.


I'm still going with hardcore cheater and liar.

ABG
Aug 02 2005 09:10 AM

I find it believable--which isn't to say I believe--that Palmeiro didn't knowingly take an illegal substance. However, it'd be nice to see him take some responsibility.

I might ask my financial advisor to invest in a low-risk mutual fund, but if one of the stocks in that mutual fund tanks, it's still my money.

silverdsl
Aug 02 2005 11:32 AM

ABG wrote:
I find it believable--which isn't to say I believe--that Palmeiro didn't knowingly take an illegal substance. However, it'd be nice to see him take some responsibility.
It was said in one of the many articles that I read of all players Palmeiro's excuse about taking it unknowingly in a suppliment is ridiculous because he was on Congress's "No Tolerance" committee which has been meeting since March to discuss these issues. Just met on July 7th in fact. So of all players Palmeiro should be well-versed in why it's important to pay attention to all the ingridients of what he puts into his body.

Also, just to clarify what I said above about the positive drug test coming in May that's apparently what Buster Olney has said a few times on ESPN radio but WEEI supossedly is saying that they heard the positive test came in early July. So I'm not sure which is correct.

metirish
Aug 02 2005 11:42 AM

another one bites the dust...

Another Suspension
A day after Rafael Palmeiro was busted, Mariners pitcher Ryan Franklin will also be suspended 10 days for testing positive for a banned substance, reports Jerry Crasnick.

Willets Point
Aug 02 2005 01:17 PM

Q: What do Rafael Palmeiro and Karl Rove have in common?





A: President Bush will stand by them regardless of the evidence of their wrongdoing.

]President Bush, the owner of the Texas Rangers when Palmeiro played for that the team, told reporters Monday that he believes him.

"Rafael Palmeiro is a friend. He testified in public and I believe him," Bush said in an interview with the Knight Ridder news service. "He's the kind of person that's going to stand up in front of the klieg lights and say he didn't use steroids, and I believe him. Still do."


Article

ABG
Aug 02 2005 01:23 PM

I hear Bush is going to appoint him HHS Secretary.

MFS62
Aug 02 2005 01:38 PM

Nah, he only went to Florida State (not the U of Texas). Raffy gets to be head of the NIH.

Later

Sandgnat
Aug 02 2005 02:06 PM

I've got to believe at this point that there is some over-the-counter supplement that these guys are taking that has hidden anabolic steroids in it, or has an ingredient that causes someone to test positive for steroids even if steroids were not actually an ingredient (think poppy seeds and weed). Its hard for me to believe that RP knowingly used steroids after his testimony and knowing there is testing and it is equally hard for me to believe that a pitcher would use steroids period.


on edit: Interestingly, half of the players suspended so far this year have been pitchers.

Rockin' Doc
Aug 02 2005 09:01 PM

If the President was to appoint Palmeiro to an agency, he might as well put his life experiences to good use and make him Director of the DEA.

metirish
Aug 03 2005 07:42 AM

From the NY Times....

]By LEE JENKINS
Published: August 3, 2005
The positive drug test that has left Rafael Palmeiro's legacy in doubt involved the potent anabolic steroid stanozolol, a person in baseball with direct knowledge of the sport's drug-testing program said yesterday.

Stanozolol, known by its brand name, Winstrol, was most notably linked to the Olympic sprinter Ben Johnson of Canada, who was stripped of a gold medal in 1988 after testing positive for that steroid.



And he wants us to believe that he didn't know he was taking it.

Frayed Knot
Aug 03 2005 07:53 AM

Stanazolol also isn't available as an ingrediant in supplements, which kind of shoots the hell out of his "accidental" theory.

Willets Point
Aug 03 2005 08:50 AM

More likely, he or his supplier thought they could mask the 'roids and it didn't work. Probably a lot of panic throughout MLB these days.

Elster88
Aug 04 2005 12:38 PM

[url]http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050804&content_id=1157095&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb[/url]

Palmeiro Faces Perjury Probe

WASHINGTON -- Congress will investigate whether baseball slugger Rafael Palmeiro perjured himself when he told a House committee that he hadn't taken steroids.
With the player's consent, Rep. Tom Davis, R-Va., chairman of the House Government Reform Committee, and the committee's ranking Democrat, Rep. Henry Waxman of California, asked Major League Baseball on Wednesday to turn over information about the failed drug test that resulted in a 10-day suspension for Palmeiro this week.

On March 17, Palmeiro appeared before their panel and said under oath: "I have never used steroids. Period."

"As a practical matter, perjury referrals are uncommon," Davis told The Associated Press. "Prosecutions are rare. But this is a high-profile case, so I think it will get an honest look-see. I don't think anyone can avoid it.

"If we did nothing," he added, "I think we'd look like idiots. Don't you?"

The Orioles first baseman tested positive for the powerful steroid stanozolol, a person with knowledge of the sport's drug-testing program told the AP on condition of anonymity. The person did not want to be identified because the sport prohibits disclosure of test results without authorization.

The positive test came after Palmeiro's appearance before Congress but before he recorded his 3,000th hit last month. That means he reached the milestone -- joining Hank Aaron, Willie Mays and Eddie Murray as the only players in Major League history with 3,000 hits and 500 homers -- after he knew about the positive results, the source told the AP.

When the suspension was announced Monday, Palmeiro stood by his statements to Congress and said he didn't know what caused the positive test.

Stanozolol is what sprinter Ben Johnson of Canada tested positive for when he was stripped of his gold medal and world record in the 100 meters at the 1988 Olympics. It is not available in over-the-counter supplements and is known as a powerful strength-builder.

"It's hard for me to reconcile that someone doesn't know that they have steroids in their body. I'm extraordinarily skeptical," said committee member Rep. Christopher Shays, R-Conn.

"It obviously was disappointing and a little unsettling that the one person so emphatic about not taking steroids was one of the first since then to be disciplined."

Rather than relying on news reports, Davis said, Congress will wait to see what it learns from the information baseball provides.

"How long does this stuff stay in the system? All of that. We're going to look at that to see what the probabilities are," Davis said.

The lawmakers asked for the complete results of all drug tests taken by Palmeiro, including what was detected and how much. During a telephone conversation with Davis on Tuesday night, Palmeiro agreed to have baseball release that information to Congress.

"He was pretty adamant about the point he didn't do anything," Davis said. "He also remarked he didn't have a lot of time to enjoy his 3,000th hit. There was an allusion to that."

They spoke for about three minutes and Palmeiro had attorneys on the phone with him, Davis said.

"What we are concerned about, obviously, is the integrity of the committee process when we swear people in. We have an obligation to look further into it, and I explained that to him, and he said he understood," the congressman said.

In confirming that he would cooperate with the committee, Palmeiro said in a statement that if it has any additional questions, "I am ready and willing to answer each and every one of them."

Palmeiro's agent, Arn Tellem, did not return a telephone call from the AP on Wednesday.

Baseball spokesman Rich Levin said the documents would be released as requested "in a timely manner," but did not give specifics and did not know if they would be made public once received.

The No. 2 official in the players' association, Gene Orza, declined comment when asked whether the union was concerned about Palmeiro's willingness to supply information. The union fought hard to protect the confidentiality of those involved in the testing process.

Davis was critical of Commissioner Bud Selig, the union and the sport's steroid policy at the March hearing. He and Waxman have proposed legislation that would establish uniform drug programs and punishments in the major U.S. professional sports.

But Davis praised baseball's handling of the Palmeiro case.

"He did get an appeal under this procedure. He filed it. And obviously they didn't cut him any slack," Davis said. "I'm satisfied that baseball proceeded as they said they would."

Among the questions that Congress can't answer are what all of this will mean for Palmeiro's Hall of Fame candidacy.

One of Palmeiro's former teams, the Texas Rangers, canceled a planned ceremony before Friday night's game against the Orioles to honor him for reaching 3,000 hits. Major League rules don't allow suspended players on the field after batting practice.


Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.

Edgy DC
Aug 04 2005 12:48 PM

Well, the accidental theory can live on the notion that the Stanazolol was added to a cocktail that he was assure was legit by a reckless or unscrupulous trainer.

That's Shef's defense, right? Bonds's also, I guess.

Or they can claim a trace amount got into his nutritional supplements through laboratory cross-contamination.

Such stories aren't yielded easily.

ScarletKnight41
Aug 10 2005 02:32 PM

[url=http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=caple/offbase/050810&num=0]Caple's Thoughts[/url]

metsmarathon
Aug 10 2005 02:41 PM

"... fans will heckle him and throw so much garbage and syringes at him that the field will look like the Jersey shoreline"

well, that's just unnecessary...

MFS62
Aug 10 2005 06:00 PM

Why? You wanted him to be town specific?

Later

seawolf17
Aug 16 2005 06:54 PM

]Bonds now says he could return in September
August 16, 2005

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- Barry Bonds now says there's a good chance he could play for the San Francisco Giants this season because his bad knee is doing better.

``Two weeks ago things didn't look too promising, but the past 10 days my rehab has taken a turn for the better,'' he wrote in a new entry on his Web site.

``My strength and endurance have increased and my knee is feeling much better. I have been playing catch and in the next few weeks I hope to be in the cage doing some hitting. There is a good possibility that I could be back in September with the team, but, if not, I will definitely be in the 2006 lineup,'' he wrote.


STFU, Barry. Retire, quit, come back and play, go coach Little League, have a sex change and become Barrina Bonds, go on a church mission to Guatemala, go smoke weed with Ricky Williams around the world, join the cast of Survivor 12, whatever. We just don't care any longer.

MFS62
Aug 16 2005 07:03 PM

Wolf, nice choices.
Do we get to vote on which of them we'd like to see him do?

Later

Elster88
Aug 26 2005 08:44 AM

From the Sports Guy's mailbag:

]Why doesn't Roger Clemens' name come up in the "Guess who's on steroids" game? He's 43 years old. Up to 235 pounds (a good 50 more than when he broke into the league). And after averaging a 4.0 ERA from 1999-2003, he suddenly becomes unhittable.


Useless speculation, I know. But I like to insinuate bad things about Asshead.

MFS62
Aug 26 2005 08:52 AM

Maybe its just because ball players have always been taught to respect their elde....., nahhhh.
Even I don't believe that bullshit I started to type.

Elster, please continue to speculate about asshead all you want. You won't get a complaint from me.

Later

silverdsl
Aug 26 2005 08:56 AM

Clemens has denied using steroids - of course he has because he's probably using HGH which he knows he has no chance of getting caught using. Personally I think Clemens has and probably still is using performance enhancers to maintain his ability to pitch so well as he's gotten older. Speculate away...

MFS62
Aug 26 2005 09:04 AM

But can he ride a bicycle?

Later

SwitchHitter
Aug 26 2005 10:39 PM

Elster88 wrote:
From the Sports Guy's mailbag:

]Why doesn't Roger Clemens' name come up in the "Guess who's on steroids" game? He's 43 years old. Up to 235 pounds (a good 50 more than when he broke into the league). And after averaging a 4.0 ERA from 1999-2003, he suddenly becomes unhittable.


Useless speculation, I know. But I like to insinuate bad things about Asshead.


Well, the Sports Guy musta missed it, but it was all over the internet a couple of weeks ago. About how some "big name" was going to be identifed and how that "big name" was Roger Clemens.

If y'all are truly interested, I can go hunt down the old threads on the various Astros forums and snag the links.

Frayed Knot
Aug 26 2005 10:49 PM

That "story" has been floating around the internet for at least 2 weeks now. Long enough where the date where the "news" is going to "break" keeps changing as each succesive deadline comes and goes w/o any revelations.
It's a phony deal, not worth the lookup.

SwitchHitter
Aug 27 2005 08:13 AM

It also occurs to me that interested parties can do a google news search.

cooby
Aug 27 2005 08:15 AM

Who is the Sports Guy? A blog or a real source?

Elster88
Aug 27 2005 11:09 AM

Neither. He's a sports-oriented humor columnist.

cooby
Aug 27 2005 11:13 AM

ESPN.com? (I looked him up )

Elster88
Aug 27 2005 11:17 AM

Yup, that's the guy.

Elster88
Sep 23 2005 07:02 AM

More shenanigans. What the hell does someone need a B-12 injection for anyway?
[url]http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2169007[/url]
_____________________________
This post had the designation 146) Tsuyoshi Shinjo

Edgy DC
Sep 23 2005 07:52 AM

Sounds like something made of nothing.

SwitchHitter
Sep 23 2005 11:46 AM

Isn't B-12 supposed to help with memory? I guess you might want to remember what pitches a particular pitcher throws or somesuch but don't they go over that sort of thing in the pre-game meeting? Feh.