THE CRANE POOL FORUM thecranepool.net (.com)


Forum Home

Master Index of Archived Threads


All-Purpose Mets-Related Trade Rumors Thread

Rotblatt
Jul 29 2005 12:05 PM

Let's keep this to rumors by news sources--that includes "news" sources like the Daily News, the Post, etc. I'm having a hard time tracking everything between the various threads. I'll kick it off with this:

]Milwaukee -- J.T. Snow's nine-year run in San Francisco could be over after this season. Heck, it could be over this week. The Mets have been eying Snow as a potential replacement for an underperforming Doug Mientkiewicz.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2005/07/29/SPGQCDULTI1.DTL

Rotblatt
Jul 29 2005 12:06 PM
Daily News Reports No Soriano Deal Likely

Daily News: Soriano Not Likely

]HOUSTON - Fever-pitched rumors of an imminent Alfonso Soriano trade to the Mets - with Mike Cameron and Lastings Milledge headed to Texas - likely had Mets brass amused. A source said Rangers and Mets officials hadn't even spoken as of yesterday afternoon.

Mets officials increasingly believe they'll make no significant change before Sunday's trading deadline. One stat that has given pause to Mets officials is Soriano's .240 average with eight homers and 21 RBI through 196 at-bats away from Arlington this season.


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/story/332592p-284214c.html

Rotblatt
Jul 29 2005 12:08 PM
Star-Ledger Reports Soriano Deal Possible, Huff Not Option

Star-Ledger Says Soriano Possible, Huff Not

]Soriano deal still in works for Mets
Friday, July 29, 2005
BY DAN GRAZIANO
Star-Ledger Staff
NEW YORK -- All those questions about whether the Mets would be buyers or sellers at the deadline seem to have been answered now, as they appear determined to land Alfonso Soriano before Sunday's non-waiver trade deadline.

Yesterday found the Mets still hard at work on a deal that would bring them the Texas Rangers second baseman. As of last night, the sides were discussing a deal that would send right fielder Mike Cameron, outfield prospect Lastings Milledge and a pitching prospect -- possibly Yusmeiro Petit -- to the Rangers for Soriano and 23-year-old first baseman Adrian Gonzalez. Final details had yet to be worked out, and some of the names could change, but the Mets are working to finalizing the deal in some form before Sunday's 4 p.m. deadline.

There also was word circulating yesterday that the Mets were one of the teams interested in getting Aubrey Huff from the Devil Rays, but a Mets official said there was no truth to it. The Mets are not out to grab whatever hitter they can get -- they like Soriano and are willing to stand pat on offense if they can't get him.


http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/112261276696400.xml&coll=1

metirish
Jul 29 2005 12:13 PM

Is Snow an improvment over Doug Mink?

AVG
.272

HR
2

RBI
22

OPB
.341

Rotblatt
Jul 29 2005 12:19 PM

I don't think so. Doesn't make sense to me unless Snow's part of a package and we're moving Dougie somewhere else as part of another package.

Rotblatt
Jul 29 2005 02:10 PM
Post: Mets Pursue Manny, Trade Unlikely

Sherman says we're looking at Manny, but we'd have to give up "equal value" which means it's not likely.
http://www.nypost.com/sports/26396.htm

]TRADE ABATE
Joel Sherman

July 29, 2005 --
Trade Deadline CONFIDENTIAL
Omar Minaya has an infatuation with Manny Ramirez's bat, so when the Mets learned the slugger wants out of Boston they called yesterday to inquire about his availability.
But just like last offseason when the Mets pursued Ramirez, the chances of making a deal are not strong for three reasons:

1) The Red Sox won a championship last year and are in first place now, and as badly as they might like to dispatch Ramirez's bad contract and attitude, they will not do so if it lessens their repeat chances. 2) Ramirez is owed $57 million over three years after this season. The Red Sox are not looking to salary dump and the Wilpons do not want the Mets to exceed the luxury tax. 3) Ramirez leads the majors with 92 RBIs, and the Red Sox do not see in this poor trade market or in a dismal upcoming free-agent market a chance to replicate that kind of production.

Red Sox president Larry Lucchino said on Boston radio station WEEI yesterday that this was the fourth straight year Ramirez has requested a trade, and acknowledged that "because of the size of his contract" that it would be difficult to move the outfielder.

For the Red Sox, this is not like last year with Nomar Garciaparra, an injury-plagued, underperforming malcontent. At the time the Red Sox dealt the shortstop, they were still cursed and not in a playoff spot, and Garciaparra was a soon-to-be free agent whom the organization did not think it could sign. Boston management felt it needed a seismic shakeup to a club that was title-less for 86 years.

The Mets heard from the Red Sox that Boston wants equal talent and is not simply in salary dump mode. So the Mets can forget about simply swapping Massachusetts native Tom Glavine to wash some payroll. The Mets believe it would be difficult to satisfy the Red Sox's needs without damaging too many other areas on their club even while they addressed their biggest weakness: an RBI bat. With Trot Nixon hurt and Johnny Damon a free agent, Boston could use an outfielder who can play center, and the Red Sox also need both bullpen and rotation help.

Still, would Mike Cameron, Kris Benson and Braden Looper be enough? Probably not. And if it were, could the Mets give it up and - even with Ramirez - feel like they had not sprung leaks elsewhere that were irreparable during the season?

The Red Sox put Ramirez on waivers after the 2003 season, at which time any team could have had him by just paying his contract. But that was at a time when Boston was imagining adding Alex Rodriguez's contract in his place. Now the Red Sox see no such replacement. So despite mutual annoyance at the moment, the marriage likely will last.

The Red Sox are irritated now because in the week in which he asked for a trade, Ramirez disappeared into the Green Monster to relieve himself while a game was in play, jogged to first on a potential double-play ball in a critical moment Tuesday against Tampa and sat out Wednesday though manager Terry Francona appealed to him to play because Trot Nixon had to be put on the DL.

Rotblatt
Jul 29 2005 02:30 PM

From Baseball Prospectus:

]Friday, July 29, 1:40 p.m. ET: Friend of BP Bruce Miles has a couple interesting notes in his latest column at the Arlington Daily Herald. He says the Cubs aren't talking with the Angels about Corey Patterson and that the Cubs' interest in the Soriano deal might not be focused on Soriano at all. The Rangers and Mets could get the Cubs involved another way, moving Cliff Floyd to Chicago in return for a couple of their pitching prospects (Sergio Mitre? Todd Wellemeyer?) moving to Texas. My best New York source doesn't like this deal--"It leaves a hole in the outfield for the Mets"--so we'll keep listening.


Hm. So in this deal, we'd give up Floyd & either Cameron, Zambrano or Heilman and get back Soriano--no indication if Gonzalez would be included.

If we're losing both Floyd & Cameron, that seems like an awfully steep price for Soriano, especially since we'd still have an extra SP or two. If we're losing Floyd & Zambrano/Heilman, it wouldn't hurt quite as much . . . . And, of course, we'd keep Milledge & Petit, which would be a Good Thing.

If it's Floyd & Cam, we'd have to put Valent in LF & Diaz in RF, which would be a downgrade both offensively and defensively. Soriano, of course, would give us improved production at 2B but there would probably be some drop-off defensively, even though Cairo/Matsui's been pretty bad.

In other words, this deal at its best wouldn't really help us this year. If we got Gonzalez, we'd be in pretty good shape in 2006, though, and we'd have some real prospects to use to pick up impact players.

Another note from BP:

]Sources tell us that very few players on the Red Sox are untouchable, up to and including Manny Ramirez. About the only flat "no" teams hear are on Hanley Ramirez and Dustin Pedroia. . . .

As the Soriano Turns: The Rangers have let the Mets know that Adrian Gonzalez is available, meaning that the Mets would possibly have one less need this off-season, allowing them to give up a little bit more. The Mets know they'll have to fill the first base and catcher slots this winter, which was how the Sean Casey talk got started. Gonzalez is stuck behind Mark Teixeira and David Dellucci in Texas. Dellucci is a name several teams, including the Cardinals, would love to add to their roster.

OlerudOwned
Jul 29 2005 04:08 PM

If we get rid of Floyd, blood will be spilled

Rotblatt
Jul 29 2005 05:04 PM
FoxSports, Quoting The Post, Says Mets Working on Manny Deal

This is a little ridiculous. From what I can tell, they cribbed everything from the Post and passed it off as a story. Nonetheless, here she be . . .

]Mets could move on Manny
FOXSports.com
Posted: 1 hour ago

The New York Mets have reportedly called the Boston Red Sox about the possibility of the two teams getting together on a trade that would bring slugger Manny Ramirez to the Big Apple, according to a report in The New York Post.

Ramirez has informed the Red Sox that he would like to be traded, and Mets' GM Omar Minaya, who fell short in his bid to acquire Ramirez during the off-season, remains keenly interested in adding the New York City native's big right-handed bat to the middle of the lineup.
Is there a formal trade offer on the table?

No.

What's more, The Post story says a blockbuster deal prior to Sunday's 4 p.m. ET non-waiver trade deadline is not likely to happen for three key reasons:

The Red Sox would effectively kill their chances of a repeat by dealing away the MVP of last season's historic World Series triumph.

Ramirez will earn $57 million over the next three seasons — not including this one. The Red Sox are not looking to dump his salary. Likewise, Mets' ownership wants to avoid going over the luxury tax threshold.

Ramirez leads the majors with 92 RBIs and his production would be hard to replace either via a trade or through the off-season free-agent market, which is expected to be weak.

Red Sox president Larry Lucchino told Boston radio station WEEI that this is the fourth consecutive season Ramirez has requested a trade, and acknowledged that he would be difficult to move "because of the size of his contract."

But if the Red Sox were to entertain an offer from New York, would outfielder Mike Cameron, pitcher Kris Benson, and reliever Braden Looper be enough in exchange for Ramirez?

The Post says probably not.

But the Red Sox need help in the starting rotation and bullpen.

Benson and Looper fit that bill.

What's more, with Trot Nixon injured and Johnny Damon headed for free agency after this season, the Sox need an outfielder who can play in center.

Insert Cameron.

But the Red Sox would likely ask, "Who will help compensate for the loss of Ramirez's production at the plate?"

Cameron, a career .265 hitter, is not the answer.


I would be livid if we unloaded Benson, Cameron & Looper for Manny & his $64,000,000 contract.

If we really want him, we could get him for peanuts in the offseason when Theo has time to work with his new payroll flexibility. Giving up that much for an albatross of a contract makes no sese whatsoever, even if Manny IS the best right-handed hitter in baseball.

Now, if the Sox are willing to pay a huge chunk of Manny's salary, it might be worth it, even if we would be giving up Benson in the deal, but I really can't see this happening . . .

MFS62
Jul 29 2005 05:19 PM

We don't have to go that high.
If Boston gets Looper they can return Curt to the rotation. That strengthens them in two spots. If we give them a starter (not Benson) and maybe Jacobs, we should be able to get Schopach (and maybe OBP machine Youkilis) back.

Later

OlerudOwned
Jul 29 2005 05:19 PM

If we lose Benson to get Manny i'll bust a blood vessel. That would pretty much guarentee a full season of Ishiit. Weird thing is, people on a Red Sox board I was looking at were saying Benson was the weak part of the offer. Go figure

Spacemans Bong
Jul 29 2005 06:30 PM

OlerudOwned wrote:
If we lose Benson to get Manny i'll bust a blood vessel. That would pretty much guarentee a full season of Ishiit. Weird thing is, people on a Red Sox board I was looking at were saying Benson was the weak part of the offer. Go figure

If you haven't noticed, most Red Sox fans are pretty ignorant.

Snow would be a good trade in a limited role. i.e. backup. Still an excellent defender, and can provide some pop off the bench, and on-base skills. Basically what Mientkiewicz should be.. He could be had for a C prospect. If the Mets want depth at 1B, that wouldn't be bad. That being said they should be trying for a legitimate bat at 1B or 2B and some bullpen arms. Acquiring some bench guys isn't bad, but it's icing on the cake.

SI Metman
Jul 29 2005 07:28 PM

The latest Buster Olney report is a doozy

Mets get: Manny and Baez
Boston gets: Cameron and Huff
Tampa gets: prospects from both, probably guys named Petit and Milledge too.

Frayed Knot
Jul 29 2005 07:29 PM

Buster Olney on espn is reporting some wacky shit where the Mets would wind up with Manny - plus Baez from the D-Rays - while we'd give up Cameron plus "prospects" (which I believe means every single player from all 7 of our farm teams ... or something like that) which would go both north to Boston and South to Tampa.


Who knows?

Beenso
Jul 29 2005 07:38 PM

can they please just stay put????



PLEASE!

Johnny Dickshot
Jul 29 2005 07:49 PM

It's crazy! But it's what happens when you're getting Pedro Martinez' best year NOW:

[url]http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/thebuzz/[/url]

Johnny Dickshot
Jul 29 2005 07:51 PM

Here's the peice, for posterity's sake.

Someone remind me how this addresses our production deficits at 1B and 2B.

Manny's in the lineup tonite btw.

Last updated: 7/29
Serious talks: Sox could get Cameron, Huff
The Red Sox Friday afternoon were involved in ''very serious'' negotiations with the New York Mets regarding a trade for outfielder Manny Ramirez, a source with direct knowledge of the negotiations told the Globe's Gordon Edes. That source said a third team, the Tampa Bay Devil Rays, was also involved, but as of late this afternoon, no agreement had been finalized on the other players and the money involved. Another industry source with direct knowledge of the negotiations did not confirm the three-way deal, but acknowledged that the Sox have talked to more than one team about Ramirez. Under the principal scenario discussed by the teams -- according to one of the clubs involved in the negotiations -- the Red Sox would receive infielder/outfielder Aubrey Huff from the Devil Rays and outfielder Mike Cameron from the Mets. The Mets would receive Ramirez from the Sox and closer Danys Baez from the Devil Rays. Tampa Bay would receive a number of prospects, possibly from both clubs. If the Sox have to deal a prospect, it could be Double-A pitcher Anibal Sanchez. ''I'm not sure this thing is really going to happen, but it's definitely being discussed,'' the source said. It is unknown whether the Mets would assume the remaining $64 million on Ramirez's contract or whether the Sox would assume some portion of that amount. The trade talks come just two days before Sunday's 4 p.m. trading deadline and in the aftermath of Ramirez's refusal to play in Wednesday's game against Tampa Bay, even though outfielder Trot Nixon had been injured the night before. But one source stressed that the Red Sox have an additional motivation to make this deal: Ramirez, after this season, has the right to veto a trade under baseball's ''10-5'' rule, which applies to players with 10 years experience, five consecutively with the same club.

Nymr83
Jul 29 2005 07:55 PM

]If Boston gets Looper they can return Curt to the rotation.


a starter is more valuable than a closer anyway, if Curt was physically capable of starting right now i'd have to think thats what he'd be doing.

SI Metman
Jul 29 2005 08:13 PM

="Beenso"]can they please just stay put????



PLEASE!


You have to do the deal if it's Manny and Baez for just Cameron, Petit and Milledge. There's no way in hell you don't do that deal. Anderson Hernandez can play second and the Mets can live with whoever they stick at first base.

Bret Sabermetric
Jul 29 2005 08:20 PM

Buster Olney was just on ESPN, explaing (but not necessarily predicting) this deal:

As I understood it, it was Mets give up Cameron (to Boston) and two prospects (I think he said Milledge and Petit, to TBDR), Boston gives up Manny (to the Mets) and two prospects (to TBDR), and TBDR gives up Huff (to Boston) and Baez (to the Mets).

My question: if we could have gotten Manny for free (on waivers) two years ago, why would be now be giving up three pretty fair properties to get him now? He's just had two seasons where he seems to have earned his salary, as much as that's possible--so now we'd pick up the tail end of that contract and pay through the nose for the privilege?

Also if he's owed some 60 million for the rest of his contract, why couldn't we pay that money elsewhere (Guerrero, Sexton, Delgado, ad nauseum) and had a good team months or years ago? Why is this now such a good deal? Because we've gotten 2/3s through the season and have only five teams to jump over for the wild card?

This makes no sense to me.

MFS62
Jul 29 2005 08:46 PM

"My question: if we could have gotten Manny for free (on waivers) two years ago, why would be now be giving up three pretty fair properties to get him now? "

Because two years ago, you still had the remaining years on Piazza's contract yet to be paid. That was too much for anyone (maybe including) Boss George to endure.

Now, with Piazza's contract to expire shortly, Manny's payments added to Mike's won't break a multi year bank.
Later

Bret Sabermetric
Jul 29 2005 08:49 PM

That's a lot of words to say "Cheap motherfucking assholes."

MFS62
Jul 29 2005 09:26 PM

A brief, but accurate, description.

Later

Nymr83
Jul 29 2005 09:45 PM

a less cynical amswer: 2 years ago the Mets were not a contender with or without Ramirez, they certainly weren't last year either. This year the Mets might be in contention and are definetaly in contention for next year.

Frayed Knot
Jul 29 2005 10:04 PM

Three team Mega-Deal has "hit a roadblock" according to the latest from espn's Jayson Stark

"A source said the Red Sox felt they could not go ahead with trading Ramirez and two prime prospects -- reportedly catcher Kelly Shoppach and right-hander Anibal Sanchez -- if all they were receiving was New York's Cameron and Tampa Bay's Huff. So they went back to the Mets "for more pieces," the source reported. At that point, the Mets "squashed the whole thing" and talks broke off. ... A baseball man with knowledge of the discussions said the Red Sox asked the Mets for a "key player," whom the Mets felt they couldn't trade."

metirish
Jul 29 2005 10:47 PM

Newsday has this deal being held up because Omar won't part with Lastings, Gaby Hernandez is in the proposed deal..here read it..

]Manny possibilities

BY KEN DAVIDOFF, JON HEYMAN AND DAVID LENNON
STAFF WRITERS

July 29, 2005, 10:34 PM EDT

What had been a dull trade-deadline week took an interesting turn Friday, as the Mets discussed a blockbuster, three-way deal that would land them superstar Manny Ramirez from the Red Sox, as well as Tampa Bay closer Danys Baez.

Two high-ranking baseball officials confirmed the negotiations, which centered around the Mets receiving Ramirez and Baez, the Red Sox getting Mets outfielder Mike Cameron and Devil Rays infielder-outfielder Aubrey Huff, and Tampa Bay importing several prospects.

One executive involved in the talks estimated that the trade had a "20 percent" chance of happening.

The Mets, according to a National League official, were insistent that they wouldn't trade outfield prospect Lastings Milledge, and that could prove to be a significant obstacle heading into Sunday's 4 p.m. non-waivers trading deadline. The Mets didn't want to pay the entire $64 million remaining on Ramirez's contract through 2008. The Devil Rays are notoriously difficult, demanding trading partners.

Industry officials questioned whether the Red Sox would be getting enough for Ramirez in this transaction.

The discussions had already advanced farther than expected -- and farther than the Alfonso Soriano talks with Texas -- given Ramirez's value to Boston as one of the game's best hitters. The Mets began Friday holding separate conversations with the Red Sox and Devil Rays (who want pitching prospect Yusmeiro Petit for Baez), but those merged into a single negotiation by day's end. Mets minor-league pitcher Gabby Hernandez is included in the bargaining.

Ramirez set these discussions in motion by recently asking Boston's front office for a trade. In his fifth season for the Red Sox, the George Washington High School product, 33, is hitting .273 with 28 homers and 92 RBIs, a .368 on-base percentage and .571 slugging percentage.

Mets general manager Omar Minaya is a huge fan of Ramirez, and the Mets nearly acquired the slugger last December. Ultimately, the two sides couldn't agree on how Ramirez's money would be split.

Baez, 27, is 5-3 with a 3.11 ERA and 20 saves in 27 opportunities. The Mets have been searching for bullpen help.

The key decision falls to the Red Sox, who must determine whether to unload their 2004 World Series Most Valuable Player. Ramirez is infamously erratic; on Wednesday, he declined Boston manager Terry Francona's request to play after Trot Nixon went on the disabled list. Ramirez was booed loudly Friday night in his first game at Fenway Park since it was reported he asked the Red Sox to trade him.

"We won't trade Manny unless it's a legitimate deal," one Red Sox official said Friday, on the condition of anonymity.

Rotblatt
Jul 29 2005 10:58 PM

huh. I wonder who the "key player" is. Floyd? Or were they cheeky enough to ask for Wright?

Hopefully that's put the nail in the coffin on this. There's no way we should both send equal value to Manny AND pay his full contract. One or the other, maybe, but not both.

And we don't need Baez, so that part of it is just retarded.

Frayed Knot
Jul 30 2005 12:10 AM

Latest news (as of midnight Friday) is that the deal is on ice for now and that the teams have given themselves a Noon Saturday deadline to either come to some kind of agreement or abandon it.

Of course it seems to me that the parties making that deadline are the same ones who are in charge of enforcing it so they can always just extend any extension and keep talking until 4PM Sunday if they wanted. I guess they want to give themselves a chance to work on something else if they can't agree in another 12 hours.

Johnny Dickshot
Jul 30 2005 12:34 AM

This is gonna be an excruciating weekend.

Valadius
Jul 30 2005 12:38 AM

I am so sick of hearing about Soriano. I don't want him, the Mets would fall apart if we got him. Shea is a goddamn pitcher's park. Therefore, you need guys that can play DEFENSE. Omar should be unloading Ishii and Graves as his first move, to a pitching-starved team like Cincy, Texas, or Baltimore...

And then it occurs to me...

Brian Roberts.

The O's will want a top-flight starter. Give them Zambrano and another guy or two, and cash. That could actually work...

SI Metman
Jul 30 2005 01:58 AM

Stoppach who was in the original Olney reported trade was shipped to Colorado as part of the Byrnes deal that turned into a 3 way. Larry Bigbie is coming back to the Sox.

SI Metman
Jul 30 2005 01:59 AM

Valadius wrote:
I am so sick of hearing about Soriano. I don't want him, the Mets would fall apart if we got him. Shea is a goddamn pitcher's park. Therefore, you need guys that can play DEFENSE. Omar should be unloading Ishii and Graves as his first move, to a pitching-starved team like Cincy, Texas, or Baltimore...

And then it occurs to me...

Brian Roberts.

The O's will want a top-flight starter. Give them Zambrano and another guy or two, and cash. That could actually work...


Well I'm sure if you got them to smoke up first, or dug up any incriminating photos of Peter Angelos in a dress...

MFS62
Jul 30 2005 08:56 AM

I just heard Warner Wolk on ESPN radio this morning. The guy rambles and rambles and he never gave a simple "Mets give up" and "Mets get" list. Its tough to figure out all the names involved and who is going where, but here are the names mentioned so far:

Mets give up:
He never mentioned Cameron, but alluded to him)
Heilmann
Looper

Mets get:
Manny Ramirez
Julio (the Rays shortstop who would play second fro the Mets)
Baez.

No specific mention of other players, and from his responses to callers, probably couldn't name any of the prospects involved without a cue card.

And they have until noon today to get it resolved.

At least getting Julio gives us a better fielder than Soriano.

Later

Rotblatt
Jul 30 2005 09:26 AM

That's a ridiculously bad deal for Boston. Shoppach should have netted them much more than a bad back-up OF.

Well, at this point, Colorado has two young catchers in Closser and Shoppach. Maybe we can make something happen there between now and next April . . . . Althgough Clossers been pretty bad this year.

Yancy Street Gang
Jul 30 2005 10:12 AM

I don't mind Manny's money so much as his age. He's already turned 33.

Anyway, it's sounding like the Manny deal is becoming unlikely, as is the Soriano deal.

And yet, I find it hard to believe that Omar will let the deadline pass without making a "big splash."

So will he find a way to revive the Soriano discussion? Or revive the Manny talks? Or will he find some other guy to get?

smg58
Jul 30 2005 11:17 AM

If the D-Rays get the Mets' two best prospects and two of the Sox' best prospects for Huff and Baez, something is seriously wrong. And if they can't build a contender in five years with the set of prospects they'd have plus Kazmir, something is seriously wrong.

It seemed like the Mets were breaking even (if they took on Manny's full contract), and the Sox were getting stiffed.

Do we have any confirmation on Shoppach going to Colorado? I cannot imagine they couldn't get more than Bigbie for him. The Mets would be obligated to offer the Red Sox more than that, wouldn't they?

Unfortunately, the last two days make the Mets look more like sellers than buyers. Losing twice to the team we most need to beat with pitching matchups heavily in our favor is a bad sign.

metirish
Jul 30 2005 11:49 AM

Olny was just on ESPN and he only mentioned Shoppach as possibly going to Seattle for Eddie Guardado, nothing about Bigbie to the Sox.MYF's pick up Embry.

Johnny Dickshot
Jul 30 2005 11:59 AM

The Post described the Sox-Rays-Mets deal as:

Mets get
Manny
Baez
Lugo

Sox get:
Cameron
Huff

Rays get:
Petit
Heilman
2 Red Sox prospects

The inclusion of Lugo and the exclusion of Millege IMO makes this a much better idea than the one first reported. Lugo can hit and play 2nd (and is from Brooklyn) ... of course, what's holding this up, the Post says is the exclusion of Milledge and the haggling over how much to pay Manny.

metirish
Jul 30 2005 12:03 PM

I'd do that deal Johnny, Buster Olney says it's the exclusion of the Sox top prospect Hanley Ramirez and the money that's holding things up.

Bret Sabermetric
Jul 30 2005 12:06 PM

When a woman has these really huge bazongas, barely squeezed into a push-up bra, and her skirt is just a little bit wider than your widest belt, and she's got these nosebleed-inducing spike heels on and ruby-red lipstick and a wicked figure, don't you think (even though she's a chaste, intelligent and reasonable woman) she's going to attract every mouth-breathing wife-beater-wearing Neanderthal on the street to suggest unbelievably rude and insulting offers of a sexual nature to her?

Well, that's the position the Mets have put themselves in. By dealing Kazmir so hastily and foolishly last year, the Mets have put the thought in every GM's mind in baseball, "Wow, maybe I can get some from these stupid bimbos--I think they're hot for me." And they may walk up and down the street all day looking to meet a nice, well-mannered guy, but all they'll get is Yahoos yelling from cars and from construction sites, and they're wondering how come they never get to meet more refined men who'll give them what they're really looking for.

Elster88
Jul 30 2005 12:44 PM

]Mets general manager Omar Minaya is a huge fan of Ramirez, and the Mets nearly acquired the slugger last December.
I don't remember this.

I like the deal that JD posted.

MFS62
Jul 30 2005 01:44 PM

Bret, you can write analogies for me any time.

Later

smg58
Jul 30 2005 01:49 PM

How about the Rays keep Lugo, the Sox get Baez, and we get Shoppach?

Johnny Dickshot
Jul 30 2005 02:19 PM

Maybe it's we get Shoppach, Sox get Heilman.

Nymr83
Jul 30 2005 02:25 PM

]the Mets have put the thought in every GM's mind in baseball, "Wow, maybe I can get some from these stupid bimbos--


I would agree, IF Pjillips were still the GM...I doubt they hold his stupidity against Minaya.

also please keep Lugo off this team and keep Baez where he is unless we aren't giving Looper up.... thats a bad tradeoff imo.

Rotblatt
Jul 30 2005 02:58 PM

If the DRays can get that much for Huff and Baez, we should absolutely become sellers this year and restock our farm system with top 100 prospects. Looper & Cam should be able to net as much as those two, and that haul is ludicrous.

And check out this line from the Post article:

]However, the Red Sox wanted Milledge, as well, apparently to spin off as part of another trade, perhaps for Cincinnati outfielder Adam Dunn or Texas second baseman Alfonso Soriano.


If Dunn's available and Cincinatti is interested in Milledge, why the fuck wouldn't we do that? Dunn's infinitely cheaper, and is younger, a better defender and baserunner and is less of a head case. He's not as good of a hitter and he strikes out more, but he also hits for power, is a lefty, and has serious potential.

OlerudOwned
Jul 30 2005 03:05 PM

ESPNews says Jason Stark calling the three-team deal "close to dead".

Nymr83
Jul 30 2005 03:15 PM

if Dunn is available without giving up Wright/Pedro GET HIM!

Bret Sabermetric
Jul 30 2005 03:22 PM

Nymr83 wrote:

I would agree, IF Pjillips were still the GM...I doubt they hold his stupidity against Minaya..


Well, the stupid part is in the analogy--I'm not saying that Omar has the identical IQ to Pjilips, I'm saying that the Mets have advertised their team policy--"If we're playing anywhere close to .500 on July 30th, if we're still in mathematical contention, if we're expecting any conceivable improvement (on the order of the return of Steve Trachsel or Steve Bieser), then we will consider ourselves buyers, and fairly desperate buyers at that. Do with us what you will but, please, be kind."

MFS62
Jul 30 2005 03:25 PM

Arould 1PM tioday, whoever was on ESPN radio dropped this tidbit:
"And the the Rays would turn Millegde around to Cincy for Adam Dunn."

And then he went to another caller/ topic/ station break/ whatever.

Does he know Dunn is available after all this weeks' smokescreens from Reds' management?
Is that all it would take?

If we're going to give up our best position prospect, why not fill the team's worst need - lefty power, and someone who could play frist base?

Or is that too logical?
I'd do that trade in a heartbeat.

Later

Iubitul
Jul 30 2005 04:26 PM

I wouldn't.

If we're not selling, I want to stand pat. This team should not worry about contending this year to the detriment of the future.

So, I say no to Manny, and no to Soriano - let some kids come up through the system and build from within. They should have learned from the Kazmir debacle from last year.

Valadius
Jul 30 2005 04:46 PM

Eric Byrnes just went to Baltimore for Larry Bigbie.

Frayed Knot
Jul 30 2005 05:47 PM

]Does he know Dunn is available after all this weeks' smokescreens from Reds' management?


I suspect statements like that fall under the category of: 'rumor/speculation reported as fact'.
Why, for instance, would the D-Rays, who jettison every player making over $6.82/hour, even consider trading an up-and-coming min wage guy for Adam Dunn who's about to go to arb next year for mega-millions?

I find it always helps if you keep the concepts of 'ESPN' and 'Journalism' is seperate parts of the brain. Unless it's coming from one of their baseball specific writers (Gammons, Olney, Stark) those topics rarely come within close proximity of each other.

Johnny Dickshot
Jul 30 2005 06:04 PM

Perhaps we can thank LaMar for his interference. Milledge, Cameron and Heilman, all of Manny's $$? Ugh.

Manny deal hits another snag
Sox balk when Rays ask for Hanley Ramirez

By Gordon Edes, Globe Staff | July 30, 2005

The proposed three-way deal that would have sent Manny Ramirez to the New York Mets before tomorrow’s 4 p.m. trading deadline may have hit an insurmountable snag today when the Tampa Bay Devil Rays, the third team in the deal, demanded that top Red Sox prospect Hanley Ramirez be included in the trade, according to major league sources.

For the Red Sox, that was a deal breaker, and unless the Devil Rays have a change of heart, it would appear that the deal is dead.

There is always the possibility the Mets could take another run at Ramirez during the August waiver period, or after the season.

Under the terms of the proposed deal, the Red Sox would have received outfielder Mike Cameron, pitcher Aaron Heilman, and outfield prospect Lastings Milledge from the Mets, and infielder/outfielder Aubrey Huff from the Devil Rays. But according to major league sources, the Devil Rays, who on Friday were prepared to accept a package of prospects that included Double-A pitcher Anibal Sanchez from the Red Sox, today insisted on Hanley Ramirez, and the Red Sox turned it down. Manny Ramirez and Devil Rays closer Danys Baez would have gone to the Mets in the deal.

It’s possible that the Red Sox and Devil Rays could resume talks about a straight two-way deal for Huff, who would give the Red Sox a lefthanded bat to replace the injured Trot Nixon. But Huff is due in excess of $6.75 million next season, which could make him too expensive for Boston’s taste at this time.

Valadius
Jul 30 2005 06:37 PM

On the subject of Hanley Ramirez, I've seen him play. I went to a Norwich Navigators-Portland Sea Dogs game in June, and he is an outstanding prospect. He's fast as hell, and he hit a home run that day, so he's got some power. He also has a cannon for an arm. The only problem I saw with him was that he was a bit shaky defensively at shortstop. His glovework wasn't that great, and he needs to locate his throws a little better. But he's a good player.

metirish
Jul 30 2005 07:12 PM

It might not mean anything but Manny is not in the Sox lineup tonight.

mt8thsw9th
Jul 30 2005 07:12 PM

For what it's worth, Manny Ramirez was in the Red Sox lineup 20 minutes before gametime, and was pulled shortly before the game started.

metirish
Jul 30 2005 07:15 PM

snap...thanks for the info and welcome.

seawolf17
Jul 30 2005 07:16 PM

Welcome indeed, mt8.

DO IT, Omar.

metirish
Jul 30 2005 07:23 PM

It's hard to keep score but the latest on ESPN has the deal "close to dead." The SportingNews reports that the Sox are talking to the Marlins, Blue Jays and Rangers about Manny.

mt8thsw9th
Jul 30 2005 07:23 PM

Just wondering, but any reason for Cliff Floyd being out of the lineup tonight? Is it just because Pettitte is on the mound, scheduled day of rest type deal?

metirish
Jul 30 2005 07:29 PM

Yep, WWSB on the FAN said he wanted to rest Cliff in the Rockies series but the way things went he couldn't, Woodie in LF, Offerman at 1st, Doug will play tomorrow.

Valadius
Jul 30 2005 07:30 PM

Although the Brewers have indicated that they won't trade Lyle Overbay, if I were them, I'd do it now, to maximize his value. He's hitting .379 for the week with 4 hr, 8 rbi. They've got Prince Fielder in the minors as their first baseman of the future.

Also, a prediction:

The Milwaukee Brewers will be a legitimate playoff-contending team within the next 3-5 years.

I'm not kidding.

Frayed Knot
Jul 30 2005 10:46 PM

Mets & Sox apparantly dropped the D-Rays as a possible trade partner and tried talking just to each other. One suggestion was Manny & money for Cammy & Milledge - but the Mets wanted more money and the Sox wanted more prospects ... and so it's "99.9% dead" according to Jayson Stark on BB2N.


Now my biggest worry is that Omar will feel pressure to "do something" after all these teases and so will do something simply so they can say that they did something.

metirish
Jul 30 2005 10:56 PM

]Now my biggest worry is that Omar will feel pressure to "do something" after all these teases and so will do something simply so they can say that they did something.


Yeah, that and the fact that the Mets are in an offensive slump right now, Gary Cohen had the Mets taking on all of the contract plus Lastings, if that's true then I can't see how the Sox will get a better deal if they are that desperate to deal him...

metirish
Jul 31 2005 12:18 AM

Well now it's the Mets and Sox, deal maybe back on, thing is the Sox have to deal him, they benched him tonight...

]Ramirez to Mets deal 'hanging by a thread'By Jayson Stark
ESPN.com
Related Video:
Buster Olney tells us who's buying and who's selling

Manny Ramirez might still become a Met, but he wouldn't land in New York via Tampa Bay.


The Red Sox and Mets agreed Saturday to stop working on an intricate three-team deal with the Devil Rays, and instead began talking only with each other, according to an official of one of the three teams.

The current deal being proposed would send Ramirez and about $15 million in cash to the Mets, in exchange for Mike Cameron and the Mets' top prospect, Lastings Milledge. But the Red Sox are believed to have told the Mets they would need more talent back to sign off on the deal. In the meantime, however, Boston is calling other teams to see if it can move either Milledge, or Cameron, or even both, in deals that could help the Red Sox address multiple needs.

With all those details yet to be worked out, and the clock still ticking toward the deadline, the official said that while there was "still a chance" of Ramirez being traded, the trade was "hanging by a thread. I wouldn't say by a noose. I would say it's hanging by a thread."

As the Mets and Red Sox talked with each other, the Devil Rays turned their attention to other deals. According to executives of two teams that spoke with the Devil Rays and White Sox, those two teams were talking about a major deal that would send both Danys Baez and Aubrey Huff to Chicago in exchange for a package of three or four top prospects.

According to three baseball men familiar with the three-way conversations, the original three-team involving Manny broke down over a dispute between Boston and Tampa Bay. The Devil Rays were insisting that Boston trade both its top offensive prospect, Hanley Ramirez, and its top pitching prospect, Jon Lester, to the Rays. The Red Sox were balking at including both, and they were unable to bridge that gap.

The Red Sox, Mets and Devil Rays had managed to revive a proposed three-team blockbuster, at least temporarily, by early Saturday. But by 2 p.m. ET, an official of one of the three teams was describing the trade as "close to dead."

The Red Sox, Mets and Devil Rays had managed to revive a proposed three-team blockbuster, at least temporarily, by early Saturday. But by 2 p.m. ET, an official of one of the three teams was describing the trade as "close to dead."

Under the proposed deal, the Red Sox would have acquired Mets outfielder Mike Cameron and pitcher Aaron Heilman, and Devil Rays outfielder/designated hitter Aubrey Huff; the Mets would have received Ramirez, Devil Rays reliever Danys Baez and shortstop Julio Lugo; and Tampa Bay would get four prospects.

In fact, the official several times referred to the deal in the past tense, also said at one point that the teams were "out of time" and, at another point, that "I just think it's not going to work."

Major League Baseball's

Johnny Dickshot
Jul 31 2005 12:27 AM

I don't wanna part with Millege.

Yancy Street Gang
Jul 31 2005 06:34 AM

Me neither. I'd rather deal Petit than Milledge.

Bret Sabermetric
Jul 31 2005 07:56 AM

“Those who would give up their good prospects to obtain a winning record neither deserve nor shall have either good prospects or a winning record.”

Rotblatt
Jul 31 2005 08:17 AM

Manny's great and all, but I'm absolutely convinced we could get him from the Red Sox for a shitload less than this in the offseason. Boston doesn't want his salary on their books, but they're not going to be able to make use of that salary flexibility in the next 8 hours, so it doesn't help them compete this year, which is why they're asking for MORE than Milledge & Cameron.

We could probably trade Cam for Manny straight up in the offseason and get a chunk of Manny's salary paid for to boot. The only reason to try and pry Manny away now is to compete this year, and that's fucking retarded, especially given how poorly we've played recently.

Rotblatt
Jul 31 2005 08:27 AM

Relevant info from BP:

]Reports from multiple sources indicate that while the much-rumored three-way deal between the Red Sox, Mets and Devil Rays is dead, that the machinations to move Manny Ramirez remain in motion. The Devil Rays overplayed their hand, insisting on Hanley Ramirez, according to most triangulations of the deal. The Mets were willing to take on all of Ramirez's salary, something that would not have put them in luxury tax peril according to BP's Jay Jaffe. With Cliff Floyd scratched from the Mets lineup Saturday, there are some rumblings that the Mets and Red Sox are working with a clean sheet of paper. Gordon Edes of the Boston Globe has done his predecessor proud with his work on this story.

Again, there are multiple reports that the Red Sox will not stop with one blockbuster, seeking to deal for Adam Dunn (using Abe Alvarez, Jon Papelbon and Lastings Milledge) or for Billy Wagner (for Jon Lester and Milledge, plus a pitcher widely expected to be Bronson Arroyo). The Reds continue to insist they are not making any deals.


Okay, so one more time: if Dunn's available, even at the ridiculously high price of Alvarez, Papelbon & Milledge, we should try and get him instead of Manny. Petit & Milledge for Dunn would be a better deal than Milledge & Cameron for Manny, if you ask me, and it's a package comparable to

Also, Lester, Milledge & Arroyo for Wagner? Are you fucking kidding me? Omar, for the love of God, become a seller RIGHT NOW. A solid #3 starter, a top 15 prospect and a top 150 prospect (IIRC--can't remember more about Lester offhand) for a closer? In this kind of market, we could rake by selling Hernandez or Looper.

Bret Sabermetric
Jul 31 2005 10:33 AM

Thank you, Rot, for validating what I've been saying. The Mets could score a fucking coup by unloading Glavine, Piazza, Cameron, Looper, Hernandez, and about a half-dozen other players [u:82959dcae4]who will never play on a post-season Mets team anyway [/u:82959dcae4], distributing their salaries (and those of players whom they could insist go as pure salary-dumps, like Matsui) in exchange for some some pretty good prospects--i.e., [u:82959dcae4]other teams'[/u:82959dcae4] Milledges and Petits, if they only could identify who those prospects are. But the phony-bullshit-image crapola of acting like this is a hot contender (now, or last July 30th or the previous years') is going to keep this ballclub chained to last place.

Enjoy.

mt8thsw9th
Jul 31 2005 12:55 PM

Rotblatt wrote:
and a top 150 prospect (IIRC--can't remember more about Lester offhand)


21 years old, lefty in AA.

107 2/3 IP, 85 hits, 7 HR, 40 BB, 125 K, 2.51 ERA

I doubt that the Red Sox have any plans to trade most of those players, I believe that was just trade ideas cooked up by the writer of that article.

Rotblatt
Jul 31 2005 01:06 PM

To add more fuel to the fire, Omar is apparently thinking of trading Petit & Heilman to Tampa Bay for Baez.

That's infuckingsane. Heilman's got better peripherals than Baez & is younger, and our bullpen is better than average already. Baez on our team becomes at best our third-best reliever. Why on earth would we part with our second-best prospect--who should be ready to contribute NEXT YEAR--and Heilman for a guy that will be MAYBE a win better than Heilman over the rest of the season?

It just makes no sense whatsoever.

Bret, I think we're totally on the same page. Any GM of a quasi-contender who HASN'T looked at this market and decided to fleece all the other quasi-contenders doesn't deserve to be a GM.

At least the Manny trade idea would provide us with a bat. This Baez trade wouldn't do shit for us but make us look stupid.

Motherfucker, I can't wait for the next three hours to be over with.

Yancy Street Gang
Jul 31 2005 01:08 PM

]To add more fuel to the fire, Omar is apparently thinking of trading Petit & Heilman to Tampa Bay for Baez.


I really hope that's not true.

Nymr83
Jul 31 2005 01:19 PM

thats insane, screw baez. take those guys, add milledge, add some other guy and go bang on cincy's door for adam dunn.

TheOldMole
Jul 31 2005 01:44 PM

Petit for Baez?

Rotblatt
Jul 31 2005 04:13 PM

Whew. Official word is that there are no deals. Thank God.

Frayed Knot
Jul 31 2005 04:33 PM

Omar (paraphrased): '... unwilling to give up prospects for relatively minor deals for non-impact players'


So it sounds like those Petit-Baez rumors (Newsday) or the Petit + Heilman for Baez swap (from wherever) were never really close to the truth.

Johnny Dickshot
Jul 31 2005 04:36 PM

Unless they were true before having shit the bed on this trip again.

smg58
Jul 31 2005 09:26 PM

You have a point JD. The Astros series did show that the 05 Mets are not the kind of team you go for broke with. Perhaps the Mets gained by losing.

Having said that, "reliable" sources this offseason had Pedro and Beltran using the Mets as a bargaining chip and Sosa fitted for the orange and blue. It's impossible to speculate on which deals were seriously considered, which deals were suggested once with no follow-through, and which deals were the invention of a journalist. The bottom line is, Minaya opted to wait until the offseason to do anything major.

Bret Sabermetric
Jul 31 2005 10:12 PM

Frayed Knot wrote:
So it sounds like those Petit-Baez rumors (Newsday) or the Petit + Heilman for Baez swap (from wherever) were never really close to the truth.


See, how this works is: If a rumored deal doesn't actually happen, it "was never close to the truth." The principals might have ripped up a signed contract because someone couldn't agree on who would announce the deal, but to FK it will always remain an imaginary figment of malicious lying newspapermen out to sell a few extra copies, or of moronic chatterboxes filling WFAN's airwaves with inane drivel.

Logic tells you, of course, that for every actual deal, GMs discuss dozens of deals that don't quite work out, and some of those get very, very close to being realized. Just not in FK's world of done deals and out-and-out lies. FK, why do you have such a hardon for journos and callers? Did one of them steal your lunch money when you were a kid or sompnin'?

Frayed Knot
Jul 31 2005 11:02 PM

No, I don't think that most journos are intentionally lying, just that at times like this being in full gossip mode is what generates interest and so they'll often print rumored deals so that if they do come true they can claim to have broken the story first. And even for those that don't they have a vested interest in floating rumors no matter how sketchy since it generates interest in the topic - which sends readers to their papers/websites - which generates more interest in the topic - which sends readers ... etc, etc.
The folks on BB2N looked positively crestfallen tonight to have so little to analyze. The lack of big names on the move seemed to have ruined their day.

"Never close to the truth" may ahve been the wrong phrase since I don't KNOW that's the case, but this week in particular saw no significant prospects dealt for anyone anywhere so maybe this assumption that top prospects were sure to be dealt for relievers wasn't in play as much as suggested and was more wishful thinking than anything.

As for radio callers; in that case yes, I do believe most of them are listening to voices inside their own heads and making up trades that have no basis in fact that they can't understand why their favorite GM hasn't pulled off yet.

Bret Sabermetric
Jul 31 2005 11:04 PM

And the lunch money?

Frayed Knot
Jul 31 2005 11:38 PM

Still have it.