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Hey I found one NYC sports talk radio host whos anti Soriano

mlbaseballtalk
Jul 26 2005 09:29 PM

For the Mets anyway.

Maybe the only NYC media guy not pushing for a variation of a Soriano trade, but Max Kellerman on 1050 ESPN Radio actually says Mike Cameron is a better offensive player, right now, than Alfonso Soriano.

Guy is a Sabermetric guy so he used all the splits, new stats and such to evaluate both players and tried to prove that Soriano A) right now is a product of a band box in Arlington and B) wasn't really that great of a postseason "clutch" guy that Yankee Colored Glass wearers want you to think

I swear it was like I was reading one of the Listserv@aol.com Met list digests (that mailing list is heavy with Sabermetric guys who are anti New York media who of course are anti-Sabermetric) the way he was making his argument

Personally, not sure if I'd go with Soriano either. More for the distraction in the clubhouse, the fact that he is two years older than he was supposed to be, and that he seems very much like an older version of Carlos Beltran, same type of stats as well

Steve

metsmarathon
Jul 26 2005 09:56 PM
Re: Hey I found one NYC sports talk radio host whos anti Sor

mlbaseballtalk wrote:
For the Mets anyway.

Maybe the only NYC media guy not pushing for a variation of a Soriano trade, but Max Kellerman on 1050 ESPN Radio actually says Mike Cameron is a better offensive player, right now, than Alfonso Soriano.

Guy is a Sabermetric guy so he used all the splits, new stats and such to evaluate both players and tried to prove that Soriano A) right now is a product of a band box in Arlington and B) wasn't really that great of a postseason "clutch" guy that Yankee Colored Glass wearers want you to think

I swear it was like I was reading one of the Listserv@aol.com Met list digests (that mailing list is heavy with Sabermetric guys who are anti New York media who of course are anti-Sabermetric) the way he was making his argument

Personally, not sure if I'd go with Soriano either. More for the distraction in the clubhouse, the fact that he is two years older than he was supposed to be, and that he seems very much like an older version of Carlos Beltran, same type of stats as well

Steve


soriano scares me. i can't put my finger on it, and im not sure why, but he scares me.

granted, i've heard kellerman make a wildly ludicrous claim, in support of another ludicrous claim, recently, that OPS should be supplanted by O2S (OBP + OBP + SLG) since OBP is twice as important as SLG, and that because of this, jason giambi is one of, if not THE, BEST hitters in the game right now.

Spacemans Bong
Jul 27 2005 01:03 PM
Re: Hey I found one NYC sports talk radio host whos anti Sor

metsmarathon wrote:
="mlbaseballtalk"]For the Mets anyway.

Maybe the only NYC media guy not pushing for a variation of a Soriano trade, but Max Kellerman on 1050 ESPN Radio actually says Mike Cameron is a better offensive player, right now, than Alfonso Soriano.

Guy is a Sabermetric guy so he used all the splits, new stats and such to evaluate both players and tried to prove that Soriano A) right now is a product of a band box in Arlington and B) wasn't really that great of a postseason "clutch" guy that Yankee Colored Glass wearers want you to think

I swear it was like I was reading one of the Listserv@aol.com Met list digests (that mailing list is heavy with Sabermetric guys who are anti New York media who of course are anti-Sabermetric) the way he was making his argument

Personally, not sure if I'd go with Soriano either. More for the distraction in the clubhouse, the fact that he is two years older than he was supposed to be, and that he seems very much like an older version of Carlos Beltran, same type of stats as well

Steve


soriano scares me. i can't put my finger on it, and im not sure why, but he scares me.

granted, i've heard kellerman make a wildly ludicrous claim, in support of another ludicrous claim, recently, that OPS should be supplanted by O2S (OBP + OBP + SLG) since OBP is twice as important as SLG, and that because of this, jason giambi is one of, if not THE, BEST hitters in the game right now.


It's not wildly ludicrous, as it's true. OBP is twice as important as slugging (well, really about 1.8 it seems, but that'd make adding a bitch).

Johnny Dickshot
Jul 27 2005 01:14 PM

I've heard a little Kellerman recently. He's actually pretty sharp. Also a MFY fan but you can't win 'em all.

Frayed Knot
Jul 27 2005 02:10 PM

I've long heard 1.6*OBA + SLG as the "best" figure ... but whatever.

Look, Soriano can be a potent offensive force and the home/road splits have not traditionally been as widely divergent as they are now so it's best just to look at this year's stuff as at least partially a fluke.
It's just that when I listen to Met fans complain about their team's problems: lack of OBA, high Ks, shakey 'D', etc; I wonder if they're so blinded by the supposed greener grass on the other side that they fail to see that these are all weaknesses of Soriano, not strengths! So getting him isn't going to "solve" those problems so much as it's just going to be more of the same even if it's an improved version of more of the same.

metsmarathon
Jul 27 2005 05:01 PM

ah. i had it in my head that 1.2 * OBP + SLG was it, but i couldnt think of where i'd seen it, or where the correlation is made.

anybody quick enough to pull up a link for me to peruse?

and i think that while he can be a bit too much of a yankee fanboy at times, and the fact hat he has a very difficult-to-listen-to voice wherin there's just something wrong with it, but i cannot put my finger on it, he is a good listen.

that he's not so high on soriano only boosts his relative standing

Frayed Knot
Jul 28 2005 10:09 AM

I wanted to take a closer look at Soriano vs. Cameron since it was brought up here and those seem to be the big names discussed these days.
It's a bit tough to compare them just on strict numbers since Soriano gets a lot more ABs (better lineup turnover, Cammy's injury) so the stats below are their most recent numbers (since last year's All-star break) but they've been "normalized" to 600 plate appearances from their actual numbers of Soriano = 664 and Cameron = 519.


ABH2BHRBBKSB/CSBAOBASLG
Soriano57115740332910019/4.275.315.552
Cameron54613542305414923/5.248.322.497




Edge to Soriano? Yeah, but not by as huge a margin as you'd think by listening to the "it's a no-brainer" remarks coming from most quarters and certainly not enough to justify trading Cameron AND half the farm system. This also doesn't take into consideration the position/glove differences, the 'non-hustle' problem, or the home park factor.
Money also slightly favors keeping Cameron. Both would be controllable through next year. Salaries this year are about the same: Cammy is locked in for next year in the $7-$8 range while Soriano would need to be paid via negotiation/arbitration where it's estimated he could command as much as $10mil.

metsmarathon
Jul 28 2005 10:50 AM

soriano also has a lower fielding percentage than kaz matsui! granted, his zone rating is better, while still only midpack.

so he's basically a lower-third defensive second baseman.

while he would add power to the lineup, he doesnt necessarily help us in any other appreciable way.

id much rather we go another route, that lands us either with no significant changes, or a power first baseman, with good OBP ability.

Frayed Knot
Jul 28 2005 10:57 AM

Cameron also dubbed (sort of) one of the top base-runners in MLB:

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/circling-the-wagons-running-the-bases-part-i/

Edgy DC
Jul 28 2005 11:04 AM

Aces.

metsmarathon
Jul 28 2005 11:18 AM

cammy and soriano also rate 10 win shares apiece for 2005, granted cammy's in with less playing time.