THE CRANE POOL FORUM thecranepool.net (.com)


Forum Home

Master Index of Archived Threads


Thoughts on the Hall of Fame

Valadius
Jul 28 2005 07:45 PM

Congrats to Wade Boggs and Ryne Sandberg on their upcoming enshrinement in Cooperstown. But let's discuss those players who SHOULD be admitted to the Hall, whether they be still playing, not on the ballot yet, on the ballot, or in front of the Veteran's Committee.

Here's my partial list of those deserving enshrinement (with current players, based on if they retired today):

Gil Hodges (the ONLY player in the history of the Hall of Fame voting process to receive more than 60% of the votes from the writers and not make it in, with the exception of Bruce Sutter in this past year's ballot, who's on his way in soon)
Bruce Sutter
Goose Gossage
Jim Rice
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Tony Gwynn
Mark McGwire
Cal Ripken Jr.
Rickey Henderson
Edgar Martinez
Tim Raines
Roberto Alomar
Mike Piazza
Ivan Rodriguez
Rafael Palmeiro
Sammy Sosa
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Greg Maddux
Tom Glavine
John Smoltz
Trevor Hoffman
Mariano Rivera
Alex Rodriguez
Ken Griffey Jr.
Larry Walker
Jeff Bagwell
Manny Ramirez
Craig Biggio
Frank Thomas
Jeff Kent

Johnny Dickshot
Jul 28 2005 07:48 PM

Chipper Jones?

Nymr83
Jul 28 2005 09:54 PM

among the active players Glavine is a stretch to me. Ramirez wouldn't get in (imo) if he suffered a career ending injury tommorow, but assuming he doesn't h's a lock. the rest of those (active) guys should be locks.

as far as the retired guys:
Blyleven and Rice are the best pitcher/hitter not currently enshrined and eligible, imo.

i don't want Dawson in the HOF, i'm not 100% sold on McGwire either, Marris isn't in is he?

Valadius
Jul 28 2005 10:04 PM

No, Roger Maris is not in the Hall of Fame.

MFS62
Jul 29 2005 07:17 AM

I've posted the way I consider players for the HOF before. Using those criteria, here's how I view the folks on your list.:(Caps for ones I heartily would support or deny)

Gil Hodges -I'd say yes if you could do it for player/ manager combined. Unfortunately, you now get voted in based on one category, and Gil doesn't quite measure up in either category.
Bruce Sutter - yes
Goose Gossage - maybe
Jim Rice - a close no (he's better than Tony Perez, but I didn't think Tony belonged either)
Bert Blyleven - yes
Andre Dawson - close no (see Rice)
Tony Gwynn - close no
Mark McGwire - maybe, He was his generation's Harmon Killebrew - a one and a half tool player. They're so similar as players that without the steroids, I'd say if Harmon is in, he goes in, too.
Cal Ripken Jr. - YES
Rickey Henderson - YES
Edgar Martinez - NO a one tool player
Tim Raines - maybe - I wouldn't get heartburn if he got in.
Roberto Alomar - yes (sigh)
Mike Piazza - YES
Ivan Rodriguez - let's wait a few years to see what his expected aging catcher decline does to his overall game and career stats
Rafael Palmeiro - YES (but five years ago I would have said no.
Sammy Sosa - yes, hard to argue his placement on the all time homer list
Barry Bonds - yes (but I'd abstain unless I had a gun to my head)
Roger Clemens - YES
Randy Johnson - yes
Pedro Martinez - let's wait to see how many career wins he ends up with
Greg Maddux - YES
Tom Glavine - If he gets in, then Jim Kaat should, too.
John Smoltz - an Eckersley hybrid. I don't know.
Trevor Hoffman - no, unless he's holding hands on the podium with Lee Smith on induction day.
Mariano Rivera - yes - he may be the forst reliever who breaks through the glass ceiling.
Alex Rodriguez - YES - he gets in on what he's already done, and he just turned 30. And at that age, is way ahead of the current record holders in hits, HR, R and RBI at the same age. He may end up being the greatest player of all time.
Ken Griffey Jr. - no
Larry Walker - I'd say yes, but the park adjustment police will keep him out.
Jeff Bagwell - wait and see. He could go to the AL and add many more numbers to his resume.
Manny Ramirez - yes. How can you keep the greatest hitter of his era out?
Craig Biggio - yes (in very small letters)
Frank Thomas - no - eight great years, and started out his career like a house on fire. But the ast few years have left a bad taste.
Jeff Kent - yes

Benjamin Grimm
Jul 29 2005 07:23 AM

Just scanning down 62's list, I spot two that I disagree with:

I'd put Gwynn in and leave Biggio out.

cooby
Jul 29 2005 07:29 AM

I would vote for Gwynn too--Lifetime BA of .338 over twenty seasons (almost 9300 ABs)

Plus he knew enough to quit while he was still good enough to be remembered that way


Cool voice, too.

Edgy MD
Jul 29 2005 07:36 AM

Cooby likes nerdy voices. Mental note.

Batting average may be over-rated, but I still wouldn't want to go to a Hall of Fame without Tony Gwynn.

Nor will I. Five gold gloves, seven silver sluggers, and 15 all-star games. He'll walk through the front gates on ballot one.

seawolf17
Jul 29 2005 07:41 AM

How can you say what you did about Manny Ramirez (the greatest hitter of his era) and not include Jim Rice? Jim Rice is a definite YES.

Other than that:
Hodges NO - not enough, for the same reasons that Joe Torre would not have gotten in if he'd only won one WS with the MFYS
Gossage NO - intimidating, yes, but not outstanding
Gwynn YES - the best pure hitter of his generation - I know they were singles, but he was as big a star as there was during his era
Pedro Martinez YES - three Cy Youngs, a career ERA+ of 167, a solid postseason record, etc.
Smoltz/Glavine YES/YES - hard to leave these guys out with their success in ATL
Jim Kaat NO - Kaat and Glavine are different pitchers; yes, Kaat pitched a long time, but he never won anything
Griffey YES - Can't say yes to Palmiero and no to Griffey. Same kinds of reasons as Pedro... he changed the game in his prime.
A-Rod NO - nobody younger than 30 gets a vote from me.
Larry Walker NO - Walker's in and Rice isn't?!?! Hells no.
Bagwell NO - but I could be swayed.
Biggio/Alomar/Kent YES/YES/NO - Biggio and Alomar are definites, but Kent... bleh.
Thomas NO - see Bagwell.

Frayed Knot
Jul 29 2005 07:50 AM

Retired players:

Gil Hodges - Sorry Brooklyn fans, but no
Bruce Sutter - No. Not good enough for long enough
Goose Gossage - No, but I wouldn't cry about it if he was
Jim Rice - No
Bert Blyleven - see Gossage
Andre Dawson - No
Tony Gwynn - Yes
Mark McGwire - Yes
Cal Ripken Jr. - Yes
Rickey Henderson - Yes
Edgar Martinez - No
Tim Raines - No
Roberto Alomar - Yes


Active players: and here I'll use the 'Hit by a Train' method. In other words, if they never played anouther game ...

Mike Piazza - Yes
Ivan Rodriguez - Not yet, but almost certainly does enough from here on out
Rafael Palmeiro - Yes
Sammy Sosa - Yes
Barry Bonds - Yes
Roger Clemens - Yes
Randy Johnson - Yes
Pedro Martinez - Yes
Greg Maddux - Yes
Tom Glavine - Probably
John Smoltz - Not yet, but still might
Trevor Hoffman - No
Mariano Rivera - Is actually just now eligible, but has already done enough
Alex Rodriguez - Also just passed year 10, he too is in this soon
Ken Griffey Jr. - Yes
Larry Walker - No
Jeff Bagwell - Maybe but this injury hurts those tack-on years
Manny Ramirez - Almost certainly
Craig Biggio - I think he will, another good year or two can seal it
Frank Thomas - Not yet - depends on how the next few years go
Jeff Kent - Not yet

MFS62
Jul 29 2005 08:10 AM

Ok, youze forced me to relook at Gwynn's numbers. He gets a strong YES from me.
mea cupla.

And I said yes to Biggio "in very small letters" I was looking for someone to sway me one way or another.

Later

Edgy MD
Jul 29 2005 08:23 AM

Gossage vs. Rivera


GossageRivera
AgeIPERA+IPERA+
2080.0730.0---
2149.7540.0---
2289.3900.0---
23141.72460.0---
24224.01800.0---
25133.015667.083
26134.3173107.7242
2758.346570.7235
2899.018061.3234
2946.717369.0245
3093.012375.7178
3187.319380.7191
32102.38246.0160
3379.012770 7265
3464.78478.7231


Gossage was such a horse for so long. I'm totally down with enshrining his Yankee self.

OlerudOwned
Jul 29 2005 11:06 AM

David Schoenfield on ESPN.com is doing a 2 day thing about future HOFers.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/st ... 0728&num=0

Mets in there:

4. Tom Glavine
Glavine has 269 wins and his career is winding down (wait, make that "his career is about to hit a brick wall"), so it appears he'll fall just short of the automatic 300-win barrier. No doubt, many electors -- especially those who used to pour down beers with Cy Young and Lefty Grove -- will disqualify Glavine because of that. After all, no starting pitcher with fewer than 300 wins has been voted in by the writers since Fergie Jenkins in 1991. That's insane. Glavine has won 20 games five times and has two Cy Youngs, finishing in the top three in four other years. He has a 2.47 ERA in eight World Series starts, including a one-hitter in the clinching game in 1995. He's a lock.

17. Mike Piazza
The man hit .362 (!) in Dodger Stadium in 1997 -- and didn't win the MVP award. How is that possible? If he'd played in Coors Field that year (like a certain MVP winner did), Piazza might have hit .400.

21. Pedro Martinez
Only five starting pitchers in the Hall have fewer wins than Pedro's 194: Dizzy Dean (150), Addie Joss (160), Sandy Koufax (165), Lefty Gomez (189) and Rube Waddell (193). Every starting pitcher in the Hall has at least 100 complete games. Pedro has 44. And no starting pitcher with a jheri curl has ever been elected.

Ahh, but … his career batting average-against is .209 (third-best all time behind Nolan Ryan's .204 and Koufax's .205) … his on-base percentage allowed is .269 (best-ever for anyone who pitched after 1920) … his lifetime winning percentage (194-79, .711) currently ranks No. 1 all time … he has three of the top 15 seasons ever for adjusted ERA (ERA compared to the league average).

The numbers overwhelm. But let's put it in terms even people who only watch "Around the Horn" can understand: From 1997 to 2002, Pedro was the most dominating pitcher in the game's history.

30. David Wright and 31. Hank Blalock
Is this the golden age of third basemen? Alex Rodriguez, Scott Rolen, Eric Chavez, Aramis Ramirez, Troy Glaus and these two young sluggers. Third base is the most under-represented position in the Hall; it's time for that to change. Blalock, 24, is on pace for his second straight 30-HR, 100-RBI season and has made just three errors. Wright, just 22, is going to be a hitting machine.

Edgy MD
Jul 29 2005 11:21 AM

I think Sid Fernandez has a batting average against of .204 or something.

seawolf17
Jul 29 2005 11:25 AM

Edgy, are you trying to say that Pedro's not a HoFer right now, if he retired today?

Edgy MD
Jul 29 2005 11:41 AM

Pedro's a jerkweed if he retired today, ruining my season and more. But he'd be a jerkweed in the Hall-of-Fame.

What could you be inferring? I'm just trying to clear up the record and see that a Met gets his due.

Let's go to the record books. Sid Fernandez pitched 1,866.7 innings. Multiply that times three and you see that he got exactly 5,600 outs.

He gave up 1,421 hits. So his batting average against, unless I'm missing something obvious should be

1,421 / ( 5,600 + 4,421 )

or

1,421 / 7,021

or

0.20239282153539381854436689930209

.203.

Am I missing something, or is Sid not the all-time leader in this?

Edgy MD
Jul 29 2005 11:42 AM

Of course, I'm missing the fact that not all innings equal three outs by the pitcher, because many runners will have been eliminated on the basepaths after reaching safely. Duh.

Spacemans Bong
Jul 29 2005 11:48 AM
Re: Thoughts on the Hall of Fame

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 29 2005 11:59 AM

Valadius wrote:
Congrats to Wade Boggs and Ryne Sandberg on their upcoming enshrinement in Cooperstown. But let's discuss those players who SHOULD be admitted to the Hall, whether they be still playing, not on the ballot yet, on the ballot, or in front of the Veteran's Committee.

Here's my partial list of those deserving enshrinement (with current players, based on if they retired today):

Gil Hodges - Living in Rockaway doesn't make you a Hall of Famer
Bruce Sutter - Maybe
Goose Gossage - Absolutely
Jim Rice - No. Severely overrated. Didn't walk and played in a bandbox.
Bert Blyleven - The most deserving pitcher not currently enshrined.
Andre Dawson - See Rice
Tony Gwynn - Well yeah
Mark McGwire
Cal Ripken Jr.
Rickey Henderson
Edgar Martinez - No. You need to be a really, really good hitter to get in when you have zero defensive value. Edgar Martinez was just very good.
Tim Raines - Absolutely. The best leadoff man ever after Rickey Henderson. He just happened to be a contemperary of Rickey Henderson and Paul Molitor (the third best leadoff man ever). Underrated because he was an Expo.
Roberto Alomar - Well, yeah
Mike Piazza
Ivan Rodriguez
Rafael Palmeiro
Sammy Sosa
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Greg Maddux
Tom Glavine - The man has 250 wins and 2 Cy Young's, 5 20-win seasons and 9 All-Star appearances. On what planet do people who doubt Tom Glavine is a Hall of Famer live on?
John Smoltz - Eh..not yet.
Trevor Hoffman - No.
Mariano Rivera - Probably.
Alex Rodriguez - Uh yeah
Ken Griffey Jr. - Yes
Larry Walker - Maybe. Gets bonus points for being Canadian.
Jeff Bagwell - Absolutely.
Manny Ramirez - Maybe. Needs to play longer.
Craig Biggio - Absolutely
Frank Thomas - Absolutely
Jeff Kent - Maybe


Oh, and where's Ron Santo?

seawolf17
Jul 29 2005 11:52 AM

I thought you were trying to imply that because Sid Fernandez held batters to a lower BA than Pedro, and Sid's not a HoFer, that Pedro's some kind of schlemiel with gaudy stats and goofy hair and nothing else.

As far as career BAA, I don't know, but look at this list:

Career H/9 IP (min 1000 IP)

1. Nolan Ryan 6.555
2. Sandy Koufax 6.792
3. Pedro Martinez 6.844
4. Sid Fernandez 6.851
5. J.R. Richard 6.876
6. Andy Messersmith 6.937
7. Kerry Wood 6.938
8. Randy Johnson 6.980
9. Hoyt Wilhelm 7.014
10. Sam McDowell 7.034

TheOldMole
Jul 29 2005 02:07 PM

Gil Hodges and Roger Maris should both be in the Hall of Fame.

MFS62
Jul 29 2005 02:14 PM

Sorry, Mole, I disagree on Maris. Maybe he belongs in a "special achievement" wing. But he played in an era when if you didn't at least come close to a .300 BA, you had to buy a ticket to get into the Hall. His .270+ BA doesn't cut it for me. He had two excellent years and was otherwise an average player.

Later

Edgy MD
Jul 29 2005 02:33 PM

Frank Thomas, foot fracture, out for the season.

Valadius
Jul 29 2005 09:04 PM

Larry Walker is a Hall of Famer.

Here's why:

Career stats:
.312 avg
.400 obp + .565 slg = .965 ops

379 homers
1299 rbi
229 sb
467 doubles

1997 MVP - .366 avg, 49 hr, 130 rbi, 409 tb, 33 sb, .452 obp, .720 slg, 1.172 ops, nearly won the triple crown, 29 road homers and .346 road average

Won a few batting titles in the late 90's

On another note, how could anyone POSSIBLY say that Ivan Rodriguez doesn't have the credentials yet to make the Hall?

He has ELEVEN Gold Gloves, most ever for a catcher
7 Silver Sluggers
.306 avg
258 hr
1038 rbi

Possibly the best defensive catcher ever.

DocTee
Jul 31 2005 09:34 PM
A case for Grace...

not that I agree...

from: http://baseballcardsnmore.com/markgrace/

Mark had more hits in the 10 years comprising the nineties than ANY other major leaguer. Every other Decade hits leader (except Pete Rose) is in the Hall of Fame. Mark also led every major leaguer in doubles for those 10 years!! A tremendous "double" feat!!

Grace Carer (1988-2003)
Games AB BA HR RBI H 2B 3B BB K R RPI
2245 8065 .303 173 1146 2445 511 45 1075 642 1179 2152



The stats shown are only to compare Mark Grace with players elected to the Hall of Fame, not to diminish any of these great player's records.

Baseball, the greatest of all games is always thought of as "A team game played by individuals" and we believe that the most important statistic in a player's record is the one that accounts for runs, as runs win games! We will attempt to illustrate Mark Grace's value to his team by showing his entire batting "arsenal", but especially his "runs produced index" (RPI) which is figured by adding runs scored and runs batted in and subtracting home runs as home runs add a run scored and a run batted in but in reality the team only scores one run! It will surprise many people to find that Mark Grace has supplied as many runs to the Cubs as some great power hitters have accounted for with their teams!

Remember, Mark is an All Star Game veteran, a Gold Glove fielder, and has been the opening day first baseman for the Cubs for 12 straight years!

The following season stats of Hall of Famers are based on 550 official at bats.
Years BA HR RBI H 2B 3B R RPI
Grace 14.60 .303 12 79 168 35 3 81 148
B. Robinson 19.31 .267 14 70 147 25 4 62 120
G. Kell 12.18 .306 6 71 169 31 4 72 137
J. Bench 14.00 .267 28 98 146 27 2 78 148
Tony Perez 17.79 .279 21 93 154 29 5 72 144
Enos Slaughter 14.50 .300 12 90 164 28 10 86 164




Drafted by the Cubs in the 24th round of the 1985 amateur draft
1988's Sporting News NL Rookie of the Year
.308 lifetime batting average is the highest of any left handed Cubs hitter since 1900 (1,000 or more games)
456 doubles is highest total for Cubs in the 20th century!
Hit .647 with a 1.118 slugging percentage in the 5 games of 1989 Cubs/Giants N.L. postseason series
Hit for the cycle against San Diego May 9th, 1993
1,000th hit on August 31st, 1993
2,000th hit on August 2nd, 1999
Named to N.L. All Star Team 3 times
Gold Glove winner 4 times
7 times in top 10 in on base percentage
Mark's flair for the dramatic was evident on September 13th, 1998 when he hit a 2 run homer in the bottom of the 10th to beat Milwaukee, on "Gracie the Swan" Beanie Baby day!
July 26th, 2000 - Gracie had a career high 6 RBIs in a 4 for 5 game against Philadelphia
August 6th, 2000 - Mark had his first career 5 hit game, going 5 for 5 with 2 doubles and a homer at San Diego
December 8th, 2000 - Mark signs a two year contract with the Arizona Diamondbacks.