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3rd Annual "The Knicks Suck" Thread

ABG
Jun 28 2005 08:54 PM

Gotta say that I like the moves generally speaking that they've made or are going to make.

Buying out Houston...check.
Thomas for Richardson and a 1...check.
Drafting Channing Frye...check.

So I guess we look like:

PG: Marbury/???
SG: Richardson/Crawford/J. Jackson
SF: Thomas/Hardaway/Ariza
PF: Sweetney/Rose/Taylor/Williams
C: Frye/Sundov

Not great. Probably not even good. But at least young and not good.

KC
Jun 28 2005 09:25 PM

I was going to attempt to make this years thread, I'm glad you beat me to it.
My interest in the Knicks has so soured, nice to finally get another big guy
with a lot of upside. I guess Frederic Weiss can keep doing whatever he's
doing. I don't read the papers re: basketball ... they (or are going to) buy out
Houston's contract?

Johnny Dickshot
Jun 28 2005 11:00 PM

Great thread title.

metirish
Jun 28 2005 11:06 PM

I'd love to see them get rid of Hardaway, Marbury, Crawford and now Richardson like to throw up a lot of 3 pointers, that will be a problem.Frye is from White Plains..also this...

]Later, 5-9 point guard Nate Robinson went 21st to Phoenix, which quickly packaged him with guard Quentin Richardson in a long-simmering trade with New York. The Suns were to receive center Kurt Thomas and the Knicks' second-round pick, 54th overall, after the deal was approved by league lawyers.

Edgy DC
Jun 28 2005 11:43 PM

How long has Thomas been there? It almost seems like he stretches back to the last time I feigned caring.

metirish
Jun 28 2005 11:47 PM

I think he is entering his 3rd season, Thomas is a bullshit artist in the way that Glen Sather is, he has Dolans ear.

Edgy DC
Jun 28 2005 11:50 PM

No, I mean Kurt. He goes back to '98-'99 with the Knicks. A bridge to Ewing.

metirish
Jun 28 2005 11:58 PM

Sorry, my bad, Kurt was signed as free agent by New York on Jan-- 22, 1999,the deal with the Suns is all but offical, Nate Robinson is an exciting player, played great for the Huskies.

TheOldMole
Jun 29 2005 08:32 AM

What's the story on Houston?

seawolf17
Jun 29 2005 08:58 AM

And how 'bout them Celtics. Bringing back the glory days, baby!

Willets Point
Jun 29 2005 09:45 AM

seawolf17 wrote:
And how 'bout them Celtics. Bringing back the glory days, baby!


Did Bird come out of retirement?

seawolf17
Jun 29 2005 09:48 AM

I'm a clueless NBA guy. I haven't watched a game since the strike, but I think I just use that as an excuse more than anything else. I just don't have the energy to devote to it. I was a Bird-McHale-DJ-Parish-Ainge fan as a kid, and I like Pierce and Walker, but other than that, I have no particular love for these C's. I do still enjoy them beating up on the Knickerbockers, however. And apparently, the kid they drafted is a Top-5 talent who has a Bottom-5 IQ; but that's okay - the draftniks are giving them A-pluses for their draft, and that's enough for me. They'll make it work.

Edgy DC
Jun 29 2005 09:48 AM

Are they stockpiling whiteys again?

Frayed Knot
Jun 29 2005 10:45 AM

]What's the story on Houston?


It's really hot & humid there and their #1 pitcher is an asshole.


But seriously folks ... the just-approved NBA collective bargaining agreement apparently contains some sort of 'get out of jail free' type card that teams can play on a one-time basis in the upcoming year in order to get out from under an existing onerous contract. Not really sure about the details but it sounds like it's tailor made for situations like Knicks & Mr. Houston.

metirish
Jun 29 2005 10:58 AM

Yep, basically the Knicks owe Houston about $40M, problem is with the old agreement the Knicks would have paid $1 dollar in luxury tax for every dollar owed meaning Houstons contract is costing them nearly $80M, now this"get out of jail free card" allows them to buy out Houston without paying that tax..

Matt Murdock, Esq.
Jul 01 2005 12:54 AM

PG: Marbury/ Robertson
SG: Richardson/ Crawford
SF: ____?/ Ariza
PF: Sweetney/ M.Rose/ D.Lee
C: Frye/ ____?/____?

T.Thomas, Big Penny, Mo Taylor and Mad Dog Williams are all in the last years of their contracts... ie, "tradebait".

Knicks still need a few more large bodies in the pivot... they're going to use their mid-level exemption to try and lasso one, and they should pick up another body along the way. [But i hope its not Kwame "Draft Bust-er" Brown]

I do hope they keep Jerome Williams, now that Kurt is gone, since Williams, Rose and Ariza are the only guys on the roster now who play any defense at all.

And they still need a starting small forward, if they're going to use Q at the off-guard, and rotate in Crawford in a 3-man backcourt rotation. I like Ariza, but he's not ready to start and play lotsa minutes. I hope they don't stick with TThomas. He blows monkey chunks.

I'm intrigued by the kids, Robertson and Lee. They look like unique players, with offensive skills. Frye, on the other hand, doesn't instill me with joy. He'll be useful, but he'll get knocked around under the boards. Without Kurt, who is going to rebound on this team? Sweetney is good, but he's small.

I'm hoping Isiah finds some 7'-3", 300 lb Slavic beast over in Europe somewhere, and just sticks him under the basket and says: "rebound, and hurt anybody who comes down the lane."

I actually think, based on their current roster, their best bet this year is to play fast and small (Marbury - Crawford - QRichardson - Sweetney - Frye, with Robertson-Lee-Williams off the bench) and just out-run and gun their opposition.

It's not my favorite style of play, but its what they've got to work with.

TheOldMole
Jul 01 2005 05:11 AM

So that means Houston is still on the roster, but they have a way to get rid of them should they choose to use it?

How about Isaiah's vote of confidence to Herb WIlliams?

MFS62
Jul 01 2005 08:25 AM
Third Annual?

Then I feel you're going to be writing this kind if post for a very long time.
Why?

Because I believe that the Knicks are the victims of a curse that rivals the Curse of the Bambino for intensity.

Some background.
Basketball has long been called "The City Game".
And in no other city is basketball followed and appreciated as much as in New York. Kids grow up dreaming of playing in Madison Square Garden, and they have for over fifty years. New York has been the home of many great teams, at all levels, and players. And the one star who shone above all others during his era was Julius Erving when he played for the Nets.

What has this got to do with the Knicks?
When the American Basketball Association (Nets) merged with the National Basketball Association (Knicks) Nets owner Roy Boe was financially strapped, mostly because of lower TV revenues and merchandise royalties for that league. It took all of his cash to pay the league entry fee. But one of the terms of that merger was a payment of $3 million from the Nets to the Knicks for territorial infringement.

Boe didn't have that amount of immediate cash. So he asked Knicks President Ned Irish if he could delay payment until he began receiving his NBA league revenues and royalties. Irish turned him down, and demanded the money immediately. The only way Boe could raise the money was to sell Erving to Philadephia for cash.

It is my belief that because Irish forced the Nets to sell Erving, thereby depriving the New York basketball fans of the most exciting player in the game, the team has been cursed ever since. It was equal in magnitude to the Red Sox selling Babe Ruth to raise cash to finance things totally unrelated to what was hapening on the field(court). And for that reason, I feel the curse will last as long. All Irish had to do was give Boe a few more months to raise the money, and maybe the Knicks would have had a championship or two since (and maybe the Nets, too).

It took 86 years for the Bambino Curse to be broken. Since the last Knick championship ws in 1973, the Curse of Dr. J. may last until 2059. So, it looks like these threads have about 54 years more to run. And you can blame it all on Ned Irish. He was as guilty of depriving New York fans of something they loved as Walter O'Malley, who is still vilified in this city.

Later

EDIT: typos

seawolf17
Jul 01 2005 09:11 AM
Re: Third Annual?

MFS62 wrote:
And you can blame it all on Ned Irish.


And you can blame it all on metirish?!?! I'm stunned, Irish. I didn't think you had that kind of venom in you. (Just kidding.)

TheOldMole
Jul 02 2005 06:05 PM

This theory makes a lot of sense to me.

SI Metman
Jul 14 2005 02:24 PM

The Knicks are adding Jerome James to give them some size. 5 yrs 30 mil which is a little too much IMO.

The rooks are tearing it up in the Summer League. Nate Robinson is a beast.

TheOldMole
Jul 14 2005 06:43 PM

Larry Brown or Herb? Which Knick team would you root more passionately for?

Edgy DC
Jul 14 2005 06:44 PM

Hubie. Today, tomorrow, forever.

TheOldMole
Jul 14 2005 07:59 PM

Well, then, Red.

But for the immediate future...?

Edgy DC
Jul 14 2005 08:01 PM

Today. Tomorrow. Forever.

Vic Sage
Jul 15 2005 12:10 PM

]I'm hoping Isiah finds some 7'-3", 300 lb Slavic beast over in Europe somewhere, and just sticks him under the basket and says: "rebound, and hurt anybody who comes down the lane."


well, Isiah came close. JJames isn't 7-3/300lb, he's 7'-1"/275lbs. He does play under the basket, and he does block shots. But his immobility doesn't allow him to rebound like he should, and his idea of defense is to hack, spending most of his time on the bench, in foul trouble.

he's certainly better than they had, but Frye better develop quickly. James is a barely adequate backup.

Raves for Robertson, Lee has opened some eyes, but Frye doesn't yet know how to play NBA defense.

Give me Red's Knicks or Riley's Knicks. Team defense or brutal defense... but defense nonetheless.

metirish
Jul 19 2005 11:45 AM

Maybe the Knicks get Larry Brown, I guess it all depends on the wording of a buyout, maybe the Pistons don't want him to coach this year, which for Brown's health might not be a bad thing.

Vic Sage
Jul 20 2005 01:13 PM

Brown is free to coach, but its unclear whether he really wants to this year. He may take a year off, then come back. at which point, the Knicks job will still be waiting for him.

I think Williams is the coach this year, then he gets axes and Brown comes aboard next year.

Elster88
Jul 27 2005 10:56 PM

Press conference announcing Brown as the head coach at noon tomorrow.

I don't really care that much. The problem is the GM and the players. I don't see what Larry can do with this mess.

Frayed Knot
Jul 28 2005 10:26 AM

I don't really care all that much either but it's amazing how much attention baseketball coaches demand. I mean obviously this ongoing soap opera has been a big topic in this town since it concerns the home team - but I'm not sure if Michael Jackson being nominated to the Supreme Court would command as much attention from the national press as has the trials and tribulations of Brown, Riley & Jackson, etc.

And then there's the money these guys are getting! Can a basketball coach really make that much difference? I don't think even top dogs like Torre and LaRussa are being paid half what these "gurus" get.

Vic Sage
Jul 28 2005 05:24 PM

the guy has won his entire career, with every team he's ever coached. I'm fine with him getting buckets of Dolan's money to come here.

coaches in basketball (and football, too) have greater impact on games than baseball managers do. Coaching philosophies ("schemes", if you will) vary, and some are more successful for some kinds of teams than for others.

Getting individual players to play like a team requires a coach to have a rep that demands respect. Getting them to play defense requires that he can teach them how.

baseball managers are largely adminstrators whose job it is to juggle a large roster of personalities over the course of a long season, without anybody actually killing anybody else. xxx and oooo coaches have less of an impact in baseball than basketball or football. The baseball manager's main skill is in recognzing the talent he has on his roster and playing those who produce more than those who don't.

Baseball is about aggregating individual accomplishment
Basketball is about sacrificing individual accomplishment for team needs.

In Baseball, if every player hits and pitches as much and as well as his talent will allow, the team will be as successful as its talent level (provided the manager doesn't get in the way by making them give up outs, or other counter-productive strategies). Over 162 games and 6 months, the cream really does rise to the top.

In Basketball, a scorer may be required to suppress his scoring ability so as to involve other players, which will keep them motivated and involved, and also so he has the energy to play defense too. A player may be asked not to shoot at ALL, and to just rebound and block shots. Every shot he takes time off the clock that could have been better used by a better shooter. A player may be asked to ONLY shoot from long-range, since the team needs the deep threat to stretch the defense, even though his shooting percentage will go down. A guy may be asked to keep fouling the other team's best player, to force him out of his game or slow him down, or put him on the free throw line, where he might do less damage.

Coaching matters.

The knicks are better today than they were yesterday.

MFS62
Jul 28 2005 07:53 PM

So now you have George Patton leading Custer's army. But there's still all those Indians out there.

Later

KC
Jul 28 2005 08:02 PM

As a life long Knick fan who fell overboard a couple of years ago and have
been treading water and drifting away from the ship, I feel a lot better today.

I don't know if I've ever said it, but I enjoy anything Norrin posts about b ball.

Johnny Dickshot
Jul 28 2005 09:05 PM

If Brown is such a great coach, how come he's coached like, 50 teams already? When will he be punished for his weaseling manuevers? He sucks!

(feel free to hammer me on my uninformed opinion)

Elster88
Jul 28 2005 09:51 PM

He's definitely a weasel.

KC
Jul 28 2005 10:17 PM

>>>When will he be punished for his weaseling manuevers?<<<

Never. This is his last job and he's home and his young family are rich, well,
more rich. His great grandkids are rich.

It takes a manuevering weasel to coach these guys today. Gotta sell the lug
heads on your story and get them to work work work on every possesion and
every defensive trip.

Uh, that's all I got.

Johnny Dickshot
Jul 28 2005 10:39 PM

I tend to hate veteran athletes and coaches who late in their careers, make an otherwise curious career switch to "get a ring."

Like the entire MFY pitching staff. Heh.

KC
Jul 28 2005 10:48 PM

I look at football and basketball totally different than I feel about baseball.

*grunt* *fart* *burp*

Frayed Knot
Jul 28 2005 11:15 PM

I don't doubt that the Knicks are a better team today than they were yesterday. I just get a kick out of hte fact that this move was analyzed to within an inch of its life and how basketball insiders treat basketball coaching as akin to splitting the atom (at least until I get sick of listening to them). Plus the soap-opera aspect of it all becomes a bit overwrought after a while:

will Larry come home to save the day and how long will he stay before he jilts us for another lover? ... will he hold out for more money than Phil? ... can he co-exist with Isiah? ... will Stephon respond to this new father figure? ... will this make Pat come back to reclaim his lost love? ... will Phil get along with Kobe and how does the fact that he's sleeping with the boss's daughter affect things? ... is Kobe still mad at Shaq? ...

Stay tuned on: 'As the Stomach Churns'

Rockin' Doc
Jul 29 2005 07:43 AM

Johnny D - 'I tend to hate veteran athletes and coaches who late in their careers, make an otherwise curious career switch to "get a ring."'

Larry Brown is a great basketball coach, but if he was making a move in search of another ring, then he shouldn't have chosen this messed up collection of overpaid players that now constitute the Knicks. The Knicks will be better due to Brown and his influence, but ultimately you have to have the players capable of instituting your schemes and game plans in order to be successful.

ABG
Jul 29 2005 10:10 AM

The biggest thing for me here is getting Larry Brown to reverse the decline and get started in the right way again. There's no one else with the cache to say "Stephan, stop being a pig-headed imbecile or we're shipping you to the Clippers for Marko Jaric" and have credibility.

The best part about it is that if Steph is a pig headed imbecile, he will be gone. Brown will win those fights by sheer virtue of his contract and stature. He also has a great basketball head for personnel, which we haven't had since Grunfeld left, and the stature to make Isiah act mildly rational from time to time.

Great move. I don't think we'll win a championship under Brown by any stretch. But I think when he leaves, we'll be on such a better track that his presence will have been invaluable.

SI Metman
Jul 29 2005 12:37 PM

If he could put up with Iverson's shenanigans, then I think he'll have no problem with Marbury, which is too bad.

Trading Marbury will actually help this franchise more than it hurts it.

Bret Sabermetric
Jul 30 2005 08:32 AM

At last! An experienced proven winner with a track record not taking shit from his roster of overpriced, undermotivated prima donnas coasting on reputation--now you'll play based on what you did your last game or two, not on what you did five or ten years ago.

(Someone explain why this is okay to post in this thread, but on a Mets thread I get blasted for it. No, on second thought, don't. I'm trying to be good this week.)

TheOldMole
Jul 30 2005 02:14 PM

Glavine and Piazza are shadows of what they once were, but I don't believe they're prima donnas, or coasting.

Bret Sabermetric
Jul 30 2005 08:38 PM

Please, Mole. Don't encourage me.

TheOldMole
Jul 31 2005 01:56 AM

Actually, I had the same thought.But it was too late...I'd already hit "Submit."

SI Metman
Aug 09 2005 12:59 AM

[url]http://www.nba.com/knicks/schedule/[/url]

Knicks schedule is out. They are done with West Coast visits on December 9th which gives an indication of how much fun the first 6 weeks will be.

Elster88
Aug 09 2005 09:42 AM

"You know, they want me to get traded now because things are getting good. Same things that happened at every other team I was on. As soon as everybody started being players, then I get the boot." -----Stephon Marbury

metirish
Aug 15 2005 03:43 PM

The Knicks are a joke, they hold on to Houston and instead cut Jerome Williams.

Vic Sage
Aug 17 2005 11:53 AM

Sorry Irish, but the Knicks made the right move (for a change).

I like the Dog, but he's injured, buried and done, as demonstrated by his announcing plans to retire. So they saved $21m and cleared a roster spot.

If they'd cut Houston, they'd have saved $40m, but still would've been on the hook for another $40m in salary. This way, they give him an opportunity to try and make it back and, in the extremely likely event he can't, he's apparently given them some assurance he'd take a medical retirement, which would save the Knicks another $30m.

This way, they're likely to save $90m and clear 2 roster spots, rather than clear $40m and still have JYDog at the end of the bench with his ruptured tendon and bad knees.

Of course, this only works if Houston does in fact retire. But he's got a relationship with Dolan, and he's a prideful and principled man, and when he finds he still can't run up and down the court, and when he gets no playing time because Brown won't use him (due to his inability to guard anybody anymore), he's going to quit. He'll still get paid by insurance, so there's no incentive to humiliate himself, and he won't want to do that to Dolan and the organization.

I think its a risk, but a good risk for the knicks to take.

Now they've got to figure out whose playing SF, and what to do with Mad Bomber Crawford. I doubt Brown will trust him at the point, and he's going to be behind both Richardson AND Marbury at the SG position. The little PG Robertson seems likely to supplant him in the rotation.

Here's the way the current 15-man roster breaks down (more or less):

PG - Stephon Marbury / Nate Robinson* / Anfernee Hardaway (IR)
SG - Quentin Richardson / Jamal Crawford / Allan Houston (IR)
SF - Tim Thomas / Trevor Ariza
PF - Mike Sweetney / Malik Rose / Maurice Taylor / David Lee*
C - Jerome James / Channing Frye* / Jackie Butler (IR)
[* = rookie]

We still need: a C and a SF, and both of them need to be able to play defense. The expiring contracts of Thomas, Taylor and Hardaway will become more valuable toward the end of the season, when other teams are trying to clear cap space. We might be able to fill our holes then, and make a decent run in 06-07.

Elster88
Aug 17 2005 11:59 AM

]The expiring contracts of Thomas, Taylor and Hardaway will become more valuable toward the end of the season, when other teams are trying to clear cap space. We might be able to fill our holes then, and make a decent run in 06-07.

So what you're saying is we can look forward to the Knicks trading for more bloated, long term contracts?

metirish
Aug 17 2005 12:24 PM

True Vic, after reading Marc Berman in the Post today I understand, good move if things work out like he thinks.

Vic Sage
Aug 17 2005 12:29 PM

]So what you're saying is we can look forward to the Knicks trading for more bloated, long term contracts?


no, what i'm saying is we can clear out our bloated expiring contracts to teams that want cap space more than they want to keep a productive player sitting on their bench.

If we keep the contracts, its not as if we'll be under the cap when they expire next year anyway, with our long-term $$ commitments to Marbury, Richardson, Crawford, James, and Rose still intact. So, since we'll still be in no position to sign an impact FA, we might as well make productive use of the expiring deals and swap them for pieces we need to make the team better.

ABG
Oct 04 2005 11:51 AM

Knicks trade Sweetney, Thomas, etc. for Eddy Curry.

[url]http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/28944.htm[/url]

Valadius
Oct 05 2005 12:40 AM

Dumb, dumb, dumb!!!

Now we have about four centers and no draft picks. Plus Curry is going to die of a heart attack if he doesn't watch out.

Vic Sage
Oct 14 2005 12:48 PM

What draft pick are we going to get that's better than a 22-year old 7' low-post center?

PG - Stephon Marbury / Nate Robinson*
SG - Jamal Crawford / Anfernee Hardaway / Allan Houston (IR)
SF - Quentin Richardson / Trevor Ariza
PF - Malik Rose / Maurice Taylor / David Lee*
C - Eddie Curry / Jerome James / Channing Frye*

[* = rookie]

I'm more concerned with Eddie Curry giving a heart attack to Larry Brown with his lack of rebounding than with Curry having one himself.

Valadius
Oct 14 2005 01:34 PM

I would prefer to play Channing Frye at power forward instead of having to settle for the Rose/Taylor crapfest.

Vic Sage
Oct 14 2005 03:19 PM

1) Rose is the only good defensive player on the roster, is an experience PF, and would offer some balance to the offense-oriented starting squad of Marbury, Crawford, Richardson and Curry.

2) I'd also prefer Frye over Taylo,r as Rose's backup, but Frye hasn't impressed anybody so far, in the summer league or the mini-camp. If he ever shows anybody any kind of game, he'll get minutes, both at the 4 and the 5.

Actually, if Frye can show he can play at this level, i think Brown will sour on Fatman James pretty quickly and give Frye significant minutes backing up Curry. And David Lee has opened some eyes, and could get minutes at PF and SF. Lee is a player.

SI Metman
Oct 14 2005 03:23 PM

I'm cautiously optimistic, but I think this team will live and die on Curry's heart.

Vic Sage
Oct 14 2005 03:37 PM

I'll take Curry's questionable heart over Tim Thomas' utter lack of one.

HahnSolo
Oct 14 2005 04:11 PM

I keep hearing that Brown and others in Knick-land love this David Lee. Now as I remember he was not the first option for Billy Donovan at Florida. Just wondering if anybody's seen him, followed his progress over the summer, and if he's actually any good.

Vic Sage
Oct 17 2005 02:14 PM

Lee is a very athletic power forward who can score and rebound. His shot might not be good enough to be a starter, but he looks like a hard-nosed, hard-working kid with a live body. I read somewhere some writer calling him a "poor man's Dave DeBushere"... which is probably overstating the case, as no higher compliment can be bestowed on a player.

They've resigned Jamison Brewer, a strong young defensive-PG with no shooting ability whatsoever. Still, its good to get some guys who actually know how to play defense. They did the same thing with Matt Barnes, a defensive-minded SF.

So the team at this point looks like:

1 - Marbury / Robinson* (Hardaway, Crawford, Brewer)
2 - Crawford / Hardaway (Richardson, Marbury)
3 - Richardson / Ariza (Hardaway, Barnes)
4 - Rose / Lee* / Taylor (Frye, James)
5 - Curry / James / Frye* (Taylor, Butler)
IR - J.Brewer, M.Barnes, J.Butler

...with Houston retiring before the season begins, and A.Davis either retiring or agreeing to a buyout; S.Barber (PG) and O.George (PF) will probably be cut during pre-season.

I'd be very happy if they could figure out a way to get rid of Penny Hardaway and Mo Taylor, And use Barnes and Lee to back up at SF, and Lee at PF.

The best defensive starting team they could put on the floor would probably be: Marbury / Richardson / Ariza / Rose / Curry
- with Crawford, Barnes, Lee and James coming off the bench;
- Robinson, Frye and Brewer sitting on the bench;
- Taylor, Hardaway and Butler in street clothes; and
- Houston in the owner's box

* = rookies

Valadius
Oct 17 2005 04:55 PM

What the hell do we still need Jackie Butler for? We've got more than enough centers now.

KC
Oct 17 2005 05:06 PM

It seems to be official ...

Allan Houston, Knicks' Shooting Guard, Retires, His Agent Says

Oct. 17 (Bloomberg) --
New York Knicks guard Allan Houston, limited to 20 games last season because of arthritic knees, will announce his retirement from the National Basketball Association this afternoon, agent Bill Strickland said.

The Knicks said in a statement that they've called a news conference to make a ``major announcement.'' The statement wasn't specific.

The decision comes less than a week after the 34-year-old Houston entered training camp by saying he felt better than he has in the two-plus years since surgery on his right knee.

Houston, an All-Star in 2000 and 2001, joined the Knicks as a free agent in 1996 after spending his first three seasons with the Detroit Pistons. He has two years and $40 million left on the seven-season, $100 million deal that he signed in 2000.

While Houston never posted the gaudy statistics of players with similar contracts, he was a reliable performer who didn't cause trouble for the franchise off the court.

Houston helped the Knicks reach the NBA Finals in the lockout-shortened 1998-99 season. His running jumper to win Game 5 of New York's first-round series against the Miami Heat is one of the most memorable shots in team history.

From a financial perspective, his retirement is a win for the Knicks, who finished last in their division last season despite the highest payroll in the league.

The Knicks during the offseason made Jerome Williams instead of Houston their amnesty player, saving about $19 million in luxury tax payments by cutting Williams while still paying him. Insurance will pick up about $25 million of the $40 million left on Houston's contract. The Knicks can apply for salary cap relief after a year.

Houston finishes with career averages of 17.3 points, 2.9 rebounds and 2.4 assists. He shot 44 percent from the field, including 40 percent from 3-point territory and 86 percent from the free-throw line.

Valadius
Oct 17 2005 05:18 PM

You beat me to the punch.

It's about time. Thanks for the memories, Allan. The shot off the front of the rim that bounced in in '99 against the Heat in the first round touched off an improbable run to the Finals for the #8 seeded Knicks. But after two years of getting big bucks without earning them, it was about damn time.

seawolf17
Oct 18 2005 09:37 AM

I haven't been much of an NBA fan in years, but this "dress code" thing is both comical and brilliant all at the same time. Here's the latest Professional Athlete Who Just Doesn't Get It, Charlotte's Brevin Knight:

Brevin Knight in USA Today, October 18 wrote:
"It's a little bit extreme unless they are going to give us some type of voucher for clothes for guys who don't make the same as other people."

This makes me so angry I want to spit. Hey, Brevin! You are a prep-school alumnus who went to Stanford. You were a first-round draft pick, and according to my calculations, you've made almost $23 million in your career. You want an effing clothing stipend?!?! Are you kidding me?!?! You get free shoes, free food, free everything... and I can't go to a freaking basketball game because the cheap seats are fifty bucks a pop, and you want a clothing stipend?!?! Go blow it out your ass, Brevin. The NBA is dead to me. I really hate professional athletes sometimes.

Vic Sage
Oct 19 2005 04:47 PM

With Houston retiring and Antonio Davis showing up for work, it now looks like Butler is gone, unless there's an injury. Goodbye, young Jackie Butler ... we hardly knew ye. Hopefully, Mo Taylor gets moved out of the lineup for defensive-oriented manimal Davis, instead of either Frye or Lee going to the IR.

1 - Marbury / Robinson* (Hardaway, Crawford)
2 - Crawford / Hardaway (Richardson, Marbury)
3 - Richardson / Ariza (Hardaway, Lee)
4 - Rose / Davis / Lee* (Frye, James)
5 - Curry / James / Frye* (Davis)

IR - J.Brewer, M.Barnes, M.Taylor

I'm still hopeful of dumping Taylor and/or Hardaway before the season starts. They both have expiring contracts.

metsmarathon
Oct 20 2005 11:39 AM

re: the dress code

i want some white-bread dude to rail against the new clothing regulations as teh man stepping on his toes preventing him from wearing his goth stylings to the game. like allen iverson said - he's going to work. he should dress comfortably. if that means dressing like a vampire, a redneck, a gangster, or a convicted felon, who are their employers to argue?

ron artest aside, all the nba 'ballers' who are bitching and moaning that they can't dress 'street' like the thugs they be are the worlds biggest poseurs.

seriously.

they're not street. they're living in gated communities, appearing on cribs and rides, got bling coming out their asses. and unlike the drug dealers and (many) rappers that represent teh same visual stylings, they didnt get there on the basis of criminal activities or risk prosecution and all that shit. they got there on hard, legal work - often while confined to some sort of rules and regulations that, while frequently bent in their favor, represent far more structure than any real thug would ever allow himself to be subjected to.

allen iverson thinks he's a thug and a gangsta, and should be able to dress that way? please. you're no more a thug than david wright is a goth. you're being paid very well to do a job. people all over this great nation, who are paid far far less than you, have dress codes they must abide by. you bus tables, you have a dress code. you wait tables, you have a dress code. you work at the gap, you have a dress code. you work for the man, in an office, you have a dress code.

the only people who dont have a dress code, typically, are the self employed and the unemployed. and the self employed are wise to dress as if they had an actual dress code, or risk losing customers and clients due to their unprofessional appearance.

so allen (and stephen, and brevin, and the whole sorry-assed poseur lot of you), if you really think that you should be exempt from teh league dress code, you have two options. either stop cashing your paychecks, or start writing your own.

rant off.

metirish
Oct 20 2005 11:58 AM

]ron artest aside, all the nba 'ballers' who are bitching and moaning that they can't dress 'street' like the thugs they be are the worlds biggest poseurs.



When is suited David Stern to promote his league he used these "thugs" to the max to gain street cred, it's all bullshit,they should be allowed to wear what they want.

Vic Sage
Oct 26 2005 04:46 PM

stephon marbury just bought 10 suits each for rookies Frye, Lee and Robinson.

now that's leadership!

HahnSolo
Oct 26 2005 05:01 PM

And that's the last time this season he'll be distributing anything to those three.

Elster88
Oct 27 2005 09:13 AM

HahnSolo wrote:
And that's the last time this season he'll be distributing anything to those three.


Rim shot.

Nice one, Captain Solo.

Elster88
Oct 27 2005 09:13 AM

Vic Sage wrote:
1 - Marbury / Robinson* (Hardaway, Crawford)
2 - Crawford / Hardaway (Richardson, Marbury)
3 - Richardson / Ariza (Hardaway, Lee)
4 - Rose / Davis / Lee* (Frye, James)
5 - Curry / James / Frye* (Davis)

IR - J.Brewer, M.Barnes, M.Taylor


In other words, C-R-A-P.
_____________________________
This post had the designation 136) Tom Hausman

Vic Sage
Oct 27 2005 11:36 AM

Not only is Antonio Davis staying with the Knicks, he's beaten out Malik Rose and Mo Taylor as the starting power forward. This will give us at least 1 strong defender/rebounder on the starting team and gives Larry Brown a strong ally in the lockerroom.

Barnes is playing well at SF and may get time with Richardson starting the season hurt, possibly even on the IR. Ariza has also shown improvement on shot selection, and Brown likes his defensive tenacity.

They're trying to trade Rose, who played himself out of the starting lineup this pre-season, and they're trying to get another SF. They're talking to Portland about Darius Miles. Unfortunately, Rose's contract will be difficult to move. They should consider moving Taylor's or Hardaway's expiring deals instead. Rose can still contribute.

Knicks released J.Brewer (G), Steve Barber (G) and O.George (F), to get down to 15.

1 - Marbury / Robinson*
2 - Crawford / Hardaway
3 - (Richardson) / Ariza / Barnes
4 - Davis / Taylor / Lee* (Rose)
5 - Curry / James / Frye* (Butler)

IR - Richardson / Rose / Butler

* rookie

When Richardson is ready, if Barnes has played well, they should move Hardaway to the IR, or trade him and/or Taylor. What Isiah is more likely to do, however, is bump Barnes down to the IR, which i think is a mistake.

Regardless, this team is not "c-r-a-p". Its filled with good young talent, with a lot of upside. If Brown can get through to Marbury, and if he can get the team to work hard on defense, this lineup could do pretty well. They'll score alot of points, thats for sure.

In fact, a team of their youngsters alone [Robinson - Ariza - Lee - Frye - Curry] would be fun to watch, and likely successful, in addition to their more veteran team [Marbury - Crawford - Richardson - Davis - James]. R

Really, the only dead weight i see on this team is Rose, Taylor and Hardaway, with Butler and Barnes easily disposable.

Elster88
Oct 27 2005 02:34 PM

]egardless, this team is not "c-r-a-p". Its filled with good young talent, with a lot of upside.

I am terrified of the word upside. If the majority of players realized their upside, then every team in the NBA would have 5-7 Hall of Famers.

]If Brown can get through to Marbury, and if he can get the team to work hard on defense, this lineup could do pretty well.

I've always thought he was somewhat of a prick, but I have to admit I'm somewhat excited about the new coach. At least enough that I'll wait until they're 10 games out AND have completed 25 games before I stop paying more than superficial attention.

Elster88
Oct 27 2005 02:36 PM

Vic, I think we had almost the exact same discussion last year about the Knicks. You are a hopeless optimist with that team.

Vic Sage
Nov 04 2005 03:45 PM

Not "hopeless" ... cockeyed. I'm just a cockeyed optimist when it comes to the Bockers, its true. Home Opener tonight, after losing a close one in Beantown.

1 - Marbury / Robinson*
2 - Richardson / Crawford
3 - Barnes / Ariza
4 - Davis / Taylor / Rose
5 - Curry / James / Frye*
Inactive - Hardaway / Butler / Lee*

* rookie

Larry started the unheralded FA Barnes over Crawford, much to Jamal's shock and awe. Barnes played pretty well, and Crawford sucked. Lets see if Crawford can get his head back in the game. If not, Robinson and Barnes might get more minutes at Jamal's expense. And Ariza blowing a wide-open jam just boosted Barnes' minutes even further.

Hardaway starts off on the inactive list... hee hee hee. Rose should join him there, so David Lee can get some hustle points.

Mo Taylor played better than i expected. Quick, lets trade him!

Curry played great, but then wore down. I think Brown will make him a great post-player by the end of the season. If he can't learn to shoot foul shots though, the league will put a "shaq attack" on him.

Richardson can hit the 3, as advertised. Antonio can still play, as suspected.

Despite all the sturm and drang, Marbury played most of the game at the point. He bricked some foul shots at the end, but played pretty well overall. Besides, there is nobody on the roster brown is going to trust more at the point, so Steph will stay there, by default.

Spike is wearing Robinson's number at courtside this year. they're about the same height.

metirish
Nov 07 2005 09:55 AM

Well the Knicks have yet to win and could be 0 for 9 when they next play at MSG,nah surely they will win a few games,right?..it's a tough trip that starts at Portland then onto Golden State ,Sacramento,Utah ,LA and then Denver, hell they might not win a game, three games in and I am already sick of watching Jamal Crawford, Curry looks lazy on defence which of course is what drove the Bulls mad with him, Kurt please come back, still the rookie players give some great spark and hope....and can someone teach these guys to shoot free throws...

Valadius
Nov 07 2005 10:15 AM

I can't stand Barnes.

Vic Sage
Nov 07 2005 05:48 PM

yeah DAVID LEEEE


we want more Lee and less Rose, James, Taylor and Davis.

metirish
Nov 10 2005 09:55 AM

Knicks lose again....

Willets Point
Nov 10 2005 12:29 PM

My wife got tix to the Celtics game last night from a co-worker. It was a fun game that ended on a game-winning buzzer beater for the Celtics that almost made up for some incredibly sloppy play in the second quarter. The Celtics may go places this year if they can maintain consistency.

seawolf17
Nov 10 2005 05:17 PM

Let's Go Celtics! (clap clap clapclapclap)

KC
Nov 17 2005 09:39 AM

Is this road trip ever going to end?

metirish
Nov 17 2005 09:45 AM

One more stop in Denver KC, and another loss no doubt.

KC
Nov 17 2005 10:40 AM

I didn't mean literally, I have a schedule ;-)

It just seems to be dragging on and I'm not seeing much of any of the
games because I'm not up hooting with the owls to watch. I recorded
the second half of last nights Lakers game to watch tonight - sounds
like Kobe went on a little bit of second half tear - but I'll watch anyway.
At least the Denver game starts a little earlier - and Sunday is a noon
matinee? During the height of the football season? What's up with dat?

Elster88
Nov 17 2005 10:51 AM

I hate basketball.

And football.

And hockey doesn't exist.

When do pitchers and catchers report?

Willets Point
Nov 17 2005 10:56 AM

You hate football yet have a football player in your avatar?

Rockin' Doc
Nov 17 2005 11:33 AM

I'm guessing that the Jets disappointing season has a great deal to do with Elster's distaste of football. This season started out with high hopes for Jets fans, but has unfortunately gone to crap pretty quickly.

metirish
Nov 18 2005 10:01 AM

It only took eight games for Marbury and Brown to clash, Steph doesn't like the way Brown is using him...Brown pretty much lashed back by claiming his way never won shit before.....this will be fun.

Elster88
Nov 18 2005 10:24 AM

Marbury really should shut up though. As big a prick as Larry Brown can be, he has made every (5?) franchise better when he gets there without exception. If Larry wants to use you a certain way, do it.

Elster88
Nov 18 2005 10:25 AM

Rockin' Doc wrote:
I'm guessing that the Jets disappointing season has a great deal to do with Elster's distaste of football. This season started out with high hopes for Jets fans, but has unfortunately gone to crap pretty quickly.


Same shit, different year.

A Boy Named Seo
Nov 19 2005 03:45 AM

Sorry to interrupt this party, but I had to shout about my first place Los Angeles Clippers to somebody, and there's no one to shout to here.

First place.

Los Angeles Clippers.

And I'm not drunk.

Go Clips!

KC
Nov 19 2005 06:56 AM

If I had to pick a West team, it would be the Clippers. Mets, Jets, Clippers ...
second citizens in big markets. Elton and I grew up in the same town, but I
went to a different high school. I had someone at work believing for three
years that I was his summer camp counselor and that I coached him a lot
when he was a youngster. Silly woman.

KC
Nov 20 2005 02:42 PM

I forget which columnist wants to trade Steph because of some over-
publicized-yawn-the-Knicks-went-on-a-stupidly-dreadful-scheduling-
nightmare - but FU - he's been playing his ass off and will get along
just fine with Coach - boo you.

Channing Frye had a sick game again today.

Orange and blue happiness. I can't believe they're going back on the
road - 103-92 your final.

(I know no one cares, but it's better than the smoke and mirrors post
I wanted to put in the Giants thread at halftime - they're not as good
as some people think)

Valadius
Nov 20 2005 06:48 PM

Stephon Marbury wins the battle of the cousins.

Vic Sage
Nov 22 2005 04:27 PM

Vic Sage:
] In fact, a team of their youngsters alone [Robinson - Ariza - Lee - Frye - Curry] would be fun to watch, and likely successful...


ehem.

me likee the kidees..

Here's a young 9-man rotation i'd like to see playing together every night:

Marbury / Crawford / Robinson
Crawford / Robinson / Ariza
Ariza / Barnes / D.Lee
Frye / D.Lee / Butler
Curry / Frye / Butler

with veterans Q-Richardson, A.Davis, and Rose on the bench, and
Taylor, Hardaway and James on the inactive list

This way, the kids grow up together and develop some cohesion.

RUMOR: Just passing this along, but i've heard that Minny is looking to dump contracts and rebuild. Garnett wants out. Szerbiak is going to start getting big money next year.

Hardaway and Davis both have contracts ending this year, and their contracts = Garnett + Szerbiak. To make this work, Knicks would have to include some 1st Round picks, and probably one of the better kids on the roster (Robinson, Lee, Ariza, Curry... NOT Frye!). I'd still do it in a heartbeat. Which is why it won't happen.

Marbury - Crawford - Szerbiak - Frye - Garnett...
Wow. They'd score 110 points a night.

KC
Nov 27 2005 03:21 PM

Howard Beck (New York Times) on Nate Robinson's buzzer beater in
OT on Saturday:

>>>Pandamoniam erupted. Robinson jumped into the arms of Trevor Ariza
and Quentin Richardson near midcourt, and the rest of the team converged
in a happy, hopping scrum of joy.<<<


I love it. We need more scrums of joy in NY.

OlerudOwned
Nov 27 2005 03:27 PM

KC wrote:
Howard Beck (New York Times) on Nate Robinson's buzzer beater in
OT on Saturday:

>>>Pandamoniam erupted. Robinson jumped into the arms of Trevor Ariza
and Quentin Richardson near midcourt, and the rest of the team converged
in a happy, hopping scrum of joy.<<<


I love it. We need more scrums of joy in NY.
Mini-Hijack alert: The Rangers had a better scrum of joy later in the day, thanks to Marek Malik's insane 15th round shootout goal.

KC
Nov 27 2005 03:50 PM

Well, 'better' is a matter of what you sport you enjoy more I guess. That 15
round shootout had a lot of ugly attempts in it. The winning shot was awesome.

Good day for The Garden.

Nymr83
Nov 27 2005 04:14 PM

this is part of the knicks annual "screw ourselves out of the lottery" winning streak. its come early this year.

Vic Sage
Nov 28 2005 11:50 AM

"Frye is the next Tim Duncan" -- Stephon Marbury.
"Duncan has a lot of rings" -- Larry Brown
"I'm just Channing" -- C.Frye

Brown says that Frye is going to be getting "starter's minutes". The kiddie corps continues to thrive.

A Boy Named Seo
Dec 08 2005 12:43 AM

Ugly, ugly, ugly, ugly, exciting, ugly game tonight. Thought the Clips were buried for sure in the third during that stretch where the Knicks went like 1-15 and it felt like the Clips were even worse. Curry's been a monster.

Tied at 69 with 5 minutes left...

Valadius
Dec 08 2005 12:49 AM

Channing definitely not getting starter's minutes tonight.

A Boy Named Seo
Dec 08 2005 01:16 AM

Hollywood doesn't really care for the Clippers much. That kid from Malcolm in the Middle has been going for years. So has Penny Marshall. But Dustin Hoffman came out tonight. So did Rock and Sandler. Gotta be Knickerbocker fans. Unless this Clipper bandwagon is really picking up steam. We'll know they're for real when the Desperate Housewives and the snobby rich kids from Laguna Beach start showing up and JG won't be able to afford to go anymore. Sandman looked like he made an "ooh, that hurt" face when Cuttino hit that big 3 to put LA up by 6 with like two minutes left. I liked that Spanglish movie he was in. Without the vets Cassell and Mobley, last year's Clips would've lost this one by 20.

Clips win. Stay ahead of the white-hot Suns for another day. Tough loss for the Knicks blowing a lead that was as big as 14 IIRC. Neat throw-back uni's on the Knicks tonight.

Good night now!

metirish
Dec 11 2005 12:19 PM

Hey look at this....go get him..

]

Ron Artest caught the Pacers off-guard on Saturday, telling the Indianapolis Star that he wants to be traded.

"I still think my past haunts me here," Artest told the newspaper in an exclusive interview. "I think somewhere else I'm starting fresh. I'm coming in with baggage, but people already know about it and how I'm going to be. Either they're going to be for me or they're not going to trade for me. Here I think my past haunts me.
"I think they will be a better team without me."

They weren't last season, when the Pacers lost Artest for 73 games for his role in a Nov. 19 brawl with the Pistons, in which Artest went into the stands after a fan.

"I think I cause a lot of problems here," Artest said. "If the trade rumors, if there is any truth — maybe it won't be a bad thing. They probably could win more games without me."

Elster88
Dec 11 2005 04:31 PM

Trying to get rid of a team cancer?

Call I-800-NY-ISIAH

metirish
Dec 12 2005 09:30 AM

Stan Van Gundy has resigned from the Heat, Riley is espected to take ovecoaching duties, an 11AM press conference is scheduled.

Vic Sage
Dec 12 2005 10:25 AM

I would take Artest in a NY minute... If he implodes, he implodes. He's got too much upside to resist.

It would make up, in some very tiny, tiny way, the inexcusable blunder that was Fredric Weis.

metirish
Dec 13 2005 04:16 PM

Just read this article on Larry Bird and the next Larry Bird, interesting and entertaining.

[url=http://www.slate.com/id/2132097/?nav=fo]The hick from French Lick[/url]

Vic Sage
Dec 14 2005 10:59 AM

Looks like Brown is finally deciding on a regular rotation and, happily, he's including the kids and not the overpaid, broken down vets.

9-man rotation:

PG- Marbury / Crawford
(LB still wants Isiah to get him a PG with a brain)

SG- Richardson / Robinson
(Q won't be at the 3 anymore. Robinson is explosive but mistake-prone)

SF - Ariza / Q.Woods
(Ariza gets the start for defense and athleticism. Woods can score. LB desperately wants an upgrade here ... ARTEST, COME HOME!)

PF - Frye / Lee
(Frye is the real deal, and can backup at center, too; Lee is a hustle player who can play at the 3 or the 4)

C - Curry / Butler
(when healthy, Curry is the low-post presence they need. Butler has become LB's pet, with effort, size and ability. He and Frye can back up both the 4 and the 5)

Brown will probably use a 9-man rotation, with Lee or Butler being the 10th man on any given night.

Definitely on the outs are veterans Davis, Rose, Hardaway and Taylor, and FA bust Jerome James, who became superfluous after the Curry trade (and completely useless with the development of Frye and Butler).

So, we still need a smart PG and a tough, defensive SF. Lets see what Isiah can do without breaking up the talented, young nucleus.

He'll be looking to move James starting today, as FAs signed this year can now be traded. Isiah also has expiring contracts of Davis and Hardaway to use as chips. We're probably stuck with Rose and Taylor's lengthier, big $ deals, and may have to take on even more bad deals to fill the holes.

I continue to be hopelessly optimistic, especially with the availability of Artest.

If we give them an expiring deal, + one of either Lee, Robinson or Ariza (NOT FRYE!), we might be able to get him.

go get him isiah! bring our guy back home!

Vic Sage
Jan 04 2006 05:16 PM

a triple OT win against the suns!
wow. I got tired just watching it.

Brown's current, but ever-changing, rotation:

PG- Marbury / Crawford / Robinson
SG- Robinson / Crawford / Woods (Ariza)
SF - Lee / Woods (Ariza, Rose)
PF - Davis / Frye / Taylor (Rose, Butler)
C - Curry / Frye / Taylor (Butler)

Ariza is in the dog house right now, but he'll probably get back into the rotation at some point. Malik Rose and Jackie Butler will sneak in every now and again, but look to be primarily on the bench.

Q. Richardson, Hardaway and Jumbo James may never be activated again, it seems.

Elster88
Jan 04 2006 09:50 PM

Vic, do you think the Knicks are crap yet?

TheOldMole
Jan 04 2006 10:07 PM

Lee joins Frye and Robinson with 20 point game. The last group of three Knicks rookies to break 20 points in the same season was Bill Bradley, Walt Frazier and Phil Jackson, in 1967-68. Why does this not seem the same?

Matt Murdock, Esq.
Jan 05 2006 01:59 PM

]Vic, do you think the Knicks are crap yet?


no, i just think they've played like crap. Defense is something that's played with the heart, and right now, Brown hasn't convinced them he knows what the fuck he's doing.

Brown hasn't figured it out yet, but he will. They've got a talented but inexperienced and mistake-prown young core, weighed down by bad vets and big contracts.

If Brown just settled on a 9-man rotation, I think they'd eventually come together as a winning team:

Starters: Marbury / Crawford / Lee / Frye / Curry
Subs: Robinson (in a 3-guard rotation) / Ariza, (backing up SG and SF) Taylor (PF) and Davis (PF, C)

Butler, Woods and Rose on the bench, and
Richardson, Hardaway and James left inactive.

If he can just settle things down, they'll develop some chemistry and comfort. Then, the defensive effort will follow.

and then pigs will fly out of my butt...

Vic Sage
Jan 09 2006 02:32 PM

undefeated in `06!

Elster88
Jan 09 2006 04:43 PM

I like Frye and I like Lee.

Marbury is the embodiment of everything that is wrong with the NBA. I thought this when he was on the T-wolves. I also hate Isiah. I think he's the worst GM in history. So maybe I'm carrying a grudge. But I think this team is awful and I would use a stronger four letter word than crap. Their record backs me up so far.

Vic Sage
Jan 11 2006 10:11 AM

4 in a row, after beating LeBron in cleveland with a clampdown 4th quarter.

go you crappy Bockers, go!

KC
Jan 11 2006 10:31 PM

Knicks 2006 - We're Losing Our Suck

5

metirish
Jan 11 2006 10:33 PM

Good game, great at the free throw line, made 30 straight.

Elster88
Jan 12 2006 12:16 AM

Wow. I'm almost officially impressed. I'll admit to being a fairweather fan for the Knicks, in that I don't watch when they have suck.

Edgy DC
Jan 12 2006 10:47 AM

Pat Riley and Phil Jackson don't impress me. They're accompllished coaches, but they've taken over rising teams with great players in place.

Larry Brown impresses me. He comes into challenging situations and meets the challenge. Chuck Daly also.

I think Brown is a little nuts with his wandering ways and all, but he impresses me.

A Boy Named Seo
Jan 12 2006 11:08 AM

Phil Jackson and his nine rings impress the heck out of me. It's one thing to take over a situation that looks to be promising, but he actually saw that potential to full realaztion every time and not only made the teams into annual contenders, he won championships. Lots of 'em.

LA was a much more difficult situation. He still had immense talent, but had to work around immense egos, too, and he did. I thought he was crazy to take over this crappy Laker team for 05-06, but he's even got them over .500. This will likely be just the second time in 14 years Phil's had a team win less than 50 games (47 in Jordan's retirement/just kidding year).

Edgy DC
Jan 12 2006 11:23 AM

Gve one coach talent and egos and another neither and the first coach wins eight times in ten.

Switch them and it's the same.

Getting players to suppress their egos and play as a team is what coaches of mens' basketball teams do -- every one down to eight-year-olds. Throw Phil Jackson's teams to a guy like Doug Collins and he wins --- what? --- only seven rings.

He's a fine coach, I just want to really throw respect to Larry Brown for choosing very difficult situations --- ones that have gotten the best of the Pitinos, Fratellos Caliparis, and other big shots whose names may not end in vowels.

Elster88
Jan 12 2006 11:33 AM

Phil Jackson is nothing special. It helps when you have the best player in history on your team.

Larry Brown is a dickhead, but a great coach.

A Boy Named Seo
Jan 12 2006 01:34 PM

Doug Collins had Phil Jackson's Bulls for three seasons before Phil had them and they were still a very good team with the best player in history, and with Pippen's and Grant's and Cartwright's and Paxson's surrounding him, but most importantly, they had zero rings. Phil, six rings.

Same with the Lakers. Great team with Shaq and Kobe for three years. No rings. Phil, three rings.

I agree that lots of coaches deal with egos and still win games, and plenty more get their teams to the playoffs, but Phil's won the damn thing 9 times out of 14 with a career winning percentage over .700 in both the regular season and the playoffs. That's sensational, best player in history or not, good situation or not.

It may be different than what Larry Brown's done, but is no less remarkable, sez me.

KC
Jan 12 2006 01:45 PM

A Boy Named Seo
Jan 12 2006 01:50 PM

Phil Jackson = My Name Is Earl

Edgy DC
Jan 12 2006 02:00 PM

Doug Collins had the Bulls for three years indeed, but they were not the same team Phil Jackson inherited

YearRecordJordan AgePippen AgeLost to
198740-4223-Celtics (Conf Champ)
198850-322422Pistons (Conf Champ)
198847-352523Pistons (NBA Champ)


Phil Jackson took over and lost to the NBA champ Pistons also, before getting over the top. It's hard to believe that this team wouldn't have gotten over the top with many other coaches.

I don't want to knock the guy (or get giddy over Doug Colins. But Jackson's chosen his spots. Ego problems included, not a coach in the league wouldn't have wanted to walk into the Bulls job and the Lakers jobs that he walked into. Not the same can be said for most of the jobs Larry Brown has chosen.

A Boy Named Seo
Jan 12 2006 02:29 PM

I agree with all of that and that is no fun to me.

A Boy Named Seo
Jan 12 2006 05:17 PM

No, I've thought about it and I don't entirely agree. Yes, he's chosen his spots wisely, but at the same time, those spots were available because other coaches couldn't get those talented teams over the hump and were let go in favor of someone who could. And I think saying that the teams probably would've won with other coaches trivializes how damn hard it is to win four rounds of playoff games.

In Phil's 14 seasons, no coach has rivaled his level of success. And I think the fact that he's been able to pick good situations says a great deal about his abilities. Maybe this year will prove different.

Edgy DC
Jan 12 2006 05:19 PM

Too late. I'm not giving you your money back.

Elster88
Jan 12 2006 11:23 PM

The Pistons beat the hell out of the Spurs in San Antonio [url=http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=260112024]83, 68[/url]. They sweep the season series winning both games by 15.

Edgy DC
Jan 12 2006 11:48 PM

Elster88
Jan 17 2006 03:46 PM

[url=http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/blog/index?name=simmons]ISIAH WANTS TO BEAT UP BILL SIMMONS[/url]

Bill Simmons blog-type post today:


Well, now I have a new career highlight: During a New York radio interview Monday, Isiah Thomas threatened to make trouble for me. I thought it was ironic he threatened me on Martin Luther King Jr. Day -- I'm sure MLK would have been proud. Given that this was the same guy who sucker-punched his best friend on the Pistons (Bill Laimbeer) during the 1992 season, I am thinking about travelling with a full-time bodyguard, or at the very least a can of mace or one of those tasers that you can get in a stalker catalog.

Here's my question for Isiah, who's apparently very angry with me ...

Right now, you have a roster that costs something like $120 million. You completely overhauled the Knicks' roster in 14 months, and now you're trying to overhaul it again. There's no rhyme or reason to anything you're doing. Your team doesn't have a first-round pick next summer, and in the summer of 2007 -- widely considered to be the deepest draft in 20-plus years -- the Bulls have the right to exchange first-round picks with you (most of your fans don't even know this). You also have to give another first-round pick to Phoenix before 2010. And you have at least eight or nine players on your roster who are completely, utterly, totally untradable, including someone with a possible heart defect and someone whose back is in such bad shape nobody would insure his contract. Your team also has one of the worst records in the league. And your fans are downright traumatized at this point, to the degree that you went into hiding until your recent winning streak. Now you're available to talk to the press again, of course.

So why shouldn't you be criticized for any of this? Why should you be immune? Why should the fact that you destroyed the CBA, then coached an underachieving Pacers team that came within two possessions of making the 2004 Finals one year after you left ... why isn't this relevant in some way? I would love to know the answer to this. So either you can e-mail me, have one of your PR people call me to explain it, or tell me as while you're making trouble for me on the street.

Or, I can fly to New York and we can have a dignified conversation about this stuff. Followed by you beating the living hell out of me.

It's up to you.

And just for the record, in the summer of 2004, I wrote a nice column about you and your old Pistons team, maybe you missed it. So I couldn't really be "out to get you," right? You're a public figure. When you screw up, people are going to write about it. Get over yourself.

Anyway, here are the e-mails we received Monday. If anyone else heard the interview, e-mail us and let us know.


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I'm just praying that I'm the first person to send you this even though it's possible thousands have already in the five minutes since the moment. Stephen A. Smith was interviewing Isiah Thomas on 1050 ESPN Radio New York, and Isiah was complimenting Stephen A. on not crossing the line by insulting players personally while critiquing them. So they went on about the ethics of it, and then Isiah said that if he ever saw Bill Simmons on the street, there would be a problem for you two. Too bad there's no TiVo for AM radio, because that would be save until I delete status. So how does it feel to be called out by Isiah Thomas? Maybe you're one step closer to playing for the Knicks now, assuming that he naturally confuses you in a couple days with Shaq.

P.S. Stephen A. responded by asking "who?"
-- Jeremy, New York


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Just an FYI, on Stephen A. Smith's ESPN (1050 AM, NY) radio show, Isiah Thomas just ranted about sportswriters without any athletic ability making personal attacks on athletes. He went so far as to say that if he were to meet you, Bill Simmons, on the street, there would be a problem. Maybe you should watch your back. Just wondering, you have the Clippers GM and the Knicks GM who want to meet you in an alley, alone. Anyone else?
-- Alex, Kearny, N.J.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sports Guy, I think you'd like to know that Isiah Thomas is planning to take revenge on you. Today on the Stephen A. Smith show on ESPN Radio here in New York, Thomas said if "I ever meet this guy Bill Simmons, it won't be good for him." In other words, I think he's planning on signing you.
-- Dan Goodman, New York


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Don't know if you've heard about this yet, but Isiah Thomas was on Stephen A. Smith's radio show this morning on 1050 AM in NY with Oscar Robertson. I only caught the tail end of it, but I believe it was a discussion centering around MLK day. Again, don't know the context, but at the end of the interview, Isiah called out and said that there would be problems if he saw "this Bill Simmons" on the street. Stephen A. Smith said that he didn't know who you were.
-- Nick, New Jersey

Isiah just called you out. I was listening to ESPN radio out of NYC and they had Isiah, Jim Brown and Oscar Robertson on for MLK day on the Stephen A. Smith show. Isiah was talking about how the media decided how to present you, and that's what type of legacy you have. He then said it's OK to knock a guy's skills or the way he plays the game and that players understand that. If you get personal then there's trouble. He then said that if he ever sees Bill Simmons, there will be trouble. Out of the blue ... calling you out. I guess it's OK to knock a guy's on-court skills, but don't dare present the facts to knock his GM ability.
-- Rob O, Neptune, N.J.

In the midst of the Stephen A. Smith show on Martin Luther King Day, the GM of the "surging" Knicks calls you out and wants to meet you on some street corner, yada, yada, yada. ... That's right, Isiah doesn't have bigger things to worry about. The Knicks are now 13-23 in the midst of four games in five days, including yesterday's brutal display at Toronto and the champs coming to town on Thursday, but he specifically mentions you during a phone interview. Shouldn't he be more focused on improving the Knicks?
-- Drew, Summit, N.J.

Monday on the Stephen A. Smith radio show, Isiah Thomas called you out. To paraphrase, he mentioned your name and said you'd be in trouble if you guys ever were to meet. The topic was the lack of black editors in the print media and Zeke brought up your name. I am not sure if the Stephen A. Smith show is nationally syndicated or if it is just a show for metro NYC area. Try to listen to the interview. It was with Zeke, Jim Brown and Oscar Robertson celebrating MLK day. Good Stuff!!!
-- Chris, Scarsdale, N.Y.

I might be the 97th person to e-mail this to you, but I heard Isiah Thomas threaten that "if I see him in the street there's gonna be a problem." This morning on the radio. So you apparently have the league's worst GM looking for you.
-- David Michlin, Jericho, N.Y.

Was listening to Stephen A Smith's radio show. He had on Oscar Robertson, Jim Brown and Isiah. Isiah was speaking about how people in the press take cheap shots because they are not man enough to go face to face with someone. He then proceeded to say, he was waiting for the day that he ran into Bill Simmons. Stephen A. Smith quickly changed the topic.
-- Mike, Long Island, N.Y.

Elster88
Jan 19 2006 10:38 AM

[url=http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=260118004]A lame Artest event.[/url]

Davis enters stands for wife; Gordon nails gamewinner in OT
Video Highlights

CHICAGO (AP) -- The moment Antonio Davis dashed up into the stands, everyone was thinking the same thing: another NBA brawl.

Yet this was different. Concerned his wife was in trouble, the New York Knicks forward reached her in the seats but remained calm, never took a swing at anybody and willingly walked away when security arrived.

Still the scene evoked memories of last season's brawl between fans and Pacers players in Detroit and overshadowed a thrilling finish to a wild game.

Ben Gordon hit a jumper at the buzzer and scored 32 points Wednesday night to give the Chicago Bulls a 106-104 overtime victory over the Knicks.

Davis later explained why he climbed into the seats during a timeout in overtime.

"I witnessed my wife being threatened by a man that I learned later to be intoxicated," Davis said in a statement issued after the game. "I saw him touch her, and I know I should not have acted the way I did, but I would have felt terrible if I didn't react. There was no time to call security. It happened too quickly."

Davis ascended about 10 rows of seats to reach his wife. There was no physical confrontation after he got there, but several people were pointing and shouting for a few moments before security arrived.

Davis, president of the NBA players' association, returned to the bench and took his seat before being ejected with 1:04 left.

United Center security remained in the stands for a few minutes more, where other fans appeared to be explaining what they had seen. Guards in suits and yellow jackets then escorted a group of people from the area.

Knicks coach Larry Brown said Davis went into the stands because he saw his wife "falling back."

Brown was coaching the Pistons during the November 2004 brawl in Detroit. A black eye for the NBA, the fight led to criminal charges and lengthy suspensions for Ron Artest, Jermaine O'Neal and Stephen Jackson.

But Brown was adamant that this situation should be viewed differently.

"Come on, that's his wife," Brown said. "That's entirely different. I was worried about Kendra. That's why he went in the stands, he saw her falling back.

"That thing that happened in the stands had nothing to do with the two teams. That's a man concerned about his family."

No arrests had been made as of late Wednesday night, police said.

Gordon hit his winning shot after New York's Jamal Crawford tied it at 104 with a 3-pointer with 4.6 seconds left. After a timeout, Gordon caught the inbounds pass near the top of the key and hit a jumper over Trevor Ariza.

New York's Maurice Taylor and Chicago's Chris Duhon also were ejected after a scuffle in overtime, a few minutes before Davis went into the stands.

"He took care of family first," Taylor said. "He's got his wife and young kids up there."

Asked about Davis' demeanor in the locker room after the game, Taylor said: "He was upset, but he was clear headed. Everyone watches where their family is."

A few minutes before Davis went into the stands, Taylor ran across the lane and knocked down Duhon, who got up and shoved Taylor. That resulted in a double technical, and the two were soon ejected.

"He set a screen on me," Taylor said. "I got the foul. It's basketball. Whatever he wanted to do after that was to his judgment."

Duhon called it a "cheap shot."

"I don't think he made any basketball move to get around me," he said.

Gordon hit 14 of 28 shots, none bigger than the last one. He missed a shot at the end of regulation, but converted in overtime after taking the inbounds pass from Kirk Hinrich.

Gordon, who grew up just north of New York City in Mount Vernon, also beat the Knicks with a buzzer-beater at Madison Square Garden last season on Martin Luther King Day.

Hinrich finished with 18 points, eight assists, eight rebounds and three steals, while Andres Nocioni and Darius Songaila scored 14 apiece.

Crawford led the Knicks with 19 points, while Quentin Richardson added 17. Stephon Marbury sat out with a sprained left shoulder, ending a streak of 280 consecutive games played.

Davis, who used to play for the Bulls, had 16 points and nine rebounds, but Eddy Curry struggled in his homecoming. He finished with 11 points and four rebounds in his first game against Chicago and missed the final seven-plus minutes of regulation after colliding with Gordon.

The Bulls were ahead 102-99 after Songaila hit two free throws with 51.1 seconds left in overtime. Crawford went 2-of-3 from the line after being fouled by Andres Nocioni to make it a one-point game. After Nocioni converted two foul shots with 8.3 seconds left, Crawford's 3 tied it at 104.

Game notes
Artest, Jackson, O'Neal and teammates Anthony Johnson and David Harrison were sentenced to a year of probation after pleading no contest to misdemeanor assault charges stemming from the fight at The Palace of Auburn Hills. They also were ordered to perform community service and pay fines. ... Marbury injured his shoulder during the fourth quarter of Monday's loss to Minnesota, and is unsure when he'll return.

Nymr83
Jan 19 2006 11:40 AM

if we're going to copy entire articles could we put them in the quotation box or something? i read the whole post without seeing anything that the poster wrote...

Davis needs to be suspended, the "don't go in the stands" rule can't have exceptions no matter how sympathetic we might be to the individual situation. his suspension should, imo, be very short, but he has to have one.

Centerfield
Jan 19 2006 12:10 PM

I think drunk fans who taunt (and allegedly make contact with) the wives of 6'9" men should then later have to face those men.

seawolf17
Jan 19 2006 12:14 PM

Yeah, but in more of a "Celebrity Boxing" type of venue, not sideline during a game.

Nymr83
Jan 19 2006 12:15 PM

I think Davis should go find the guy after the game, but he needs to stay out of the stands as long as he is in uniform.

Centerfield
Jan 19 2006 12:18 PM

Sorry, didn't mean for my post to imply that Davis shouldn't be suspended (he should, and I still believe in the rule).

I was just throwing in my two cents about idiot fans.

A Boy Named Seo
Jan 19 2006 12:23 PM

!

Edgy DC
Jan 19 2006 12:25 PM

Um, yikes.

Elster88
Jan 19 2006 03:56 PM

Larry Brown said, and I quote, "I don't blame him."

Sometimes I wonder about Larry. Actually, I wonder about him all the time, when I happen to be thinking about him.

Elster88
Jan 20 2006 09:27 AM

I am giving the Antonio Davis situation much more thought than is warranted.

Heard two things yesterday:

1) The fan told Davis' wife to shut the fuck up and sit down, which started the whole thing. She yelled back at him. He said something along the lines of: Seriously, you're ruining the game. At this point, she got up and went over to his seat, and was the first to get in his face, by pointing right in his face. He said stop, she refused. He smacked her hand out of the way, she put it back in his face. It was about at this point that Davis showed up. This whole story should be taken with a grain of salt, as it seems to be the concensus of the fans who were in the area.

2) When Davis showed up, security was already on the scene. This can be seen from the videotape.


Almost every writer has said they understand what Davis did. Scoop Jackson said, and I quote "Any real man would have done the same."

metirish
Jan 20 2006 09:32 AM

She's no angel that's for sure Elster, watching the Knick game last night on TNT I think it was Reggie Miller that mentioned that she has gotten into conflicts before with fans.

Elster88
Jan 20 2006 09:40 AM

From the video you can see her in the man's face, the man then calls for security by waving at them and pointing at her. He also is trying to ignore her by looking around to watch the game. At one point she turns around and is about to leave, he still isn't saying anything to her at this point, but she comes back for more.

Of course Davis couldn't have known any of this. But he should've stayed on the bench. And "Any real man would've done the same" is bullshit rationalization. Especially since this man probably knew his wife was an idiot.

Edgy DC
Jan 20 2006 09:54 AM

having had personal experience of "dramatic women" I've every sympathy with the Wilpons. Antonio Davis.

Centerfield
Jan 20 2006 10:15 AM

I saw the video and interviews with witnesses as well. Seems like Mrs. Davis may have been the instigator of the whole thing.

I hear the fan is suing for $1 million. Where's Lionel when you need him.

ABG
Jan 20 2006 10:18 AM

FWIW, the other fan is the son of arguably the top Democratic political consultant in the country.

cooby
Jan 20 2006 10:34 AM

I was going to suggest he was going up there to protect/defend the guy against his she-wolf wife, but that is not what he seems to say.

Elster88
Jan 20 2006 11:05 AM

I'm one of the biggest Isiah-bashers there is, but he has to be complimented on his draft this year. Channing Frye is pretty nasty, and it's nice to see a white guy with actual skill like David Lee on the Knicks.
_____________________
This post had the designation 79) Pete Falcone

Nymr83
Jan 20 2006 04:25 PM

Centerfield wrote:

I hear the fan is suing for $1 million. Where's Lionel when you need him.


another bullshit lawsuit brought to you by greedy bastards who hope to make a buck by blowing something out of proportion

Vic Sage
Jan 20 2006 05:05 PM

]I'm one of the biggest Isiah-bashers there is, but he has to be complimented on his draft this year. Channing Frye is pretty nasty, and it's nice to see a white guy with actual skill like David Lee on the Knicks.


but its not just frye and lee.

Isiah now has 7 guys on the roster age 23 or younger:
Ariza, Butler - 20
Robinson - 21
Frye, Lee - 22
Curry, Crawford - 23

and 4 vets 25-29:
Q-Rich, Q-Woods - 25
Marbury, Taylor - 29

with only 4 guys 30 and over:
James - 30
Rose - 31
Hardaway - 34 (expiring contract)
Davis - 37 (expiring contract)

The Q-Rich trade turned out bad because of his bad back. Signing James was a disaster, especially when they then traded for curry. Rose/Taylor deals were bad, and tied us to long term contracts.

But overall, isiah has accumulated 9 guys 25 and under on the roster, most of whom have some interesting upside, and he has some expiring deals he can trade. Only Rose, James, Taylor and Q-Rich will remain long-term problems for the roster, and the knicks can afford to carry them.

some reporters are bashing Isiah about the cost in draft picks, but with a roster this young, they don't need more picks. They need cohesion and veteran leadership. Brown can give them that, to some degree, but it has to come from players on the floor. I still think Stephon can deliver it, with Brown at the helm. And if he can't, the knicks can't turn it around.

Elster88
Jan 23 2006 04:57 PM
Edited 4 time(s), most recently on Jan 23 2006 05:08 PM

WARNING********DANGER*******WARNING: THIS POST IS ALMOST A QUOTE FROM A NEWSPAPER. ANYBODY HOPING FOR MORE OF A POST FROM ELSTER88 AND NOT WANTING TO WASTE HIS TIME WITH A NEWSPAPER ARTICLE SHOULD SKIP THE REMAINDER OF THE POST AFTER THE LINK, AS WITH ALL THE POSTS IN WHICH I PUT AN ARTICLE. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

I'm not sure why I posted this. Maybe I just like "insane woman" stories....of course "insane woman" is redundant.

[url=http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/384393p-326265c.html]Read the whole article.[/url]

The Chicago Bulls fan who got way up close and personal with the Knicks' Antonio Davis claimed foul yesterday - insisting the hoopster's wife started the whole ruckus.
Michael Axelrod plans to file a $1 million battery and slander suit against Davis and his wife, Kendra, for portraying him as an unruly, drunken instigator.

"The story was completely bull," Axelrod's attorney, Jay Paul Deratany, told the Daily News yesterday.

Axelrod, 22, is the son of David Axelrod, a big-wheel Democratic consultant who has worked with Sens. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, and Chicago Mayor Richard Daley.

Davis, 37, bolted into the stands of Chicago's United Center to confront Michael Axelrod, who he claimed was intoxicated and putting his hands on his wife.

No blows were traded, but the 6-foot-9, 245-pound Davis spouted off a few curse words before heading back to the court. The player was ejected and suspended for five games for charging into the stands.

But the 6-foot-3, 175-pound Axelrod said Davis should have been restraining his wife.

He said he was jeering a ref's call against the Bulls from his seventh-row seat when Kendra Davis, sitting two rows in front of him, suddenly stood up and got in his face.

"Once the ref blows his whistle, I yell out, 'That's a terrible call' and then I start booing with everybody else," Axelrod told The News.

"She gets in my face and says, 'These are his kids. Shut your goddamn mouth,'" said Axelrod, recalling that she pointed toward two young children sitting directly in front of him.

"She has her finger on me, on my cheek. She was digging her finger in. I thought she might start scratching me," Axelrod said. "I say, 'Get your hands off me. Don't touch me, I'm trying to watch the game.'"

He said she then started rubbing his cheek and mocking him, saying, "'I'm not touching you. It's okay baby.'"

"A minute goes by. I don't know what to do. I felt like hitting her, but you can't - she's a woman," Axelrod said.

When another fan told Davis to shut up and sit down, she went after him, giving Axelrod a chance to motion to security guards for help.

"I turned back and Antonio Davis was standing right there," said Axelrod, a graduate of Beloit College in Wisconsin, who works for his father's firm. He insisted he was not drunk, claiming, "I never drink at basketball games. I'm a huge basketball fan. That's why I go."

Axelrod was briefly detained after the fracas, but was allowed to return in time to watch the Bulls win. Meanwhile, other fans who witnessed the encounter seemed to side with Axelrod.

Ex-New Yorker Tom Malkin said he was sitting near Axelrod and saw the confrontation. "It appeared that Kendra didn't like it that someone was rooting against her husband," Malkin told the sports fan Web site Deadspin.com. Axelrod "was not at all confrontational."

Elster88
Jan 23 2006 04:58 PM

I'm sure that insane remark won't go unnoticed. Let me give a big "just kidding" to all.

Elster88
Jan 25 2006 11:17 AM

Isiah's just a peach, isn't he?

]Isiah Thomas is a foul-mouthed, slobbering harasser who propositioned the Knicks' former top marketing exec for sex - and even plotted to lure opposing teams to boozy strip joints to throw off their games, an explosive new lawsuit charges

[url]http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/62267.htm[/url]

seawolf17
Jan 25 2006 01:35 PM

]"However, as mentioned earlier, Ron is deeply committed to the sport of basketball and desperately misses playing the game he loves. If the trade is made he will play for his new team, regardless of how he may feel about it."

-Mark Stevens, agent for Ron Artest

Hey, you know what, Ron Artest? If you don't like it, then take your ball and go home. Retire. Go find a job somewhere that doesn't involve getting paid millions of dollars dribbling a basketball.

I hate professional athletes.

Elster88
Jan 25 2006 04:59 PM

I love ESPN's poll by state feature. Question: "If you were a Kings fan, would you do the trade today." The only two options were yes and no (note to weenies: this is how to write and answer a poll). Although the splits were fairly close, (it was about 60/40 overall in favor or "No, do not make the trade), only three states were in favor of "Yes". One was Indiana. California was not one of them.

Vic Sage
Jan 30 2006 12:17 PM

Wow.

The team goes into the toilet and the gm gets caught up in a sexual harrassment suit.

Is Isiah going up in flames or what?

metirish
Jan 30 2006 12:27 PM

What a mess, have things ever been this bad for the Knicks in team history?, and now a love child of Isiah's is splashed on the front page of the post...

seawolf17
Jan 30 2006 12:33 PM

Here's my NBA question. Keep in mind this comes from someone who doesn't follow the NBA.

The Knicks allegedly are so far over the cap that they're not going to be able to compete. Richard Neer was saying yesterday on the FAN that they have two guys with expiring contracts who Isiah will "likely trade for guys with longer deals and more money down the road." This doesn't make any sense to me. I'd rather dump my $15 million guy at the end of the year and free up that money rather than get a $4-$7-$10 (for the following three seasons) guy who's going to handicap me down the road.

As a GM, what do you do? Do you just punt the next three seasons and wait until those contracts expire, filling in the holes with low-priced young players and free agents? Or does this trade-expiring-contracts-for-longer-contracts thing make sense?

Vic Sage
Jan 30 2006 01:54 PM

cap space only matters in order to sign unrestricted free agents. Thats not the only way to build a team. In fact, few teams are built like that.

Isiah came into a situation where the Knicks were capped out for the indefite future, and so he has employed other strategies to rebuild the team... including sign & trades, the draft, and mid-level FAs.

At this point, he's got 7 players under age 25 (9 under 29), and the bad long-term deals of Rose, Taylor, James and Q-Rich can be carried by a rich franchise. But with big money/long-term deals also in place with core players Marbury and Crawford, sitting out Antonio Davis and Penny Hardaway's deals isn't going to get the Knicks under the cap anyway.

If Isiah moves davis and/or hardaway's expiring deals, it would be to rebuilding teams looking for cap space, and maybe he can get back some of the draft picks he gave up for Curry, or get a complimentary vet who (though overpaid) brings some valuable skills to a defensively-challenged team that doesn't have a backup PG or a starting SF.

ABG
Jan 31 2006 10:39 AM

I've long advocated a dump every possible salary, collect draft picks, get significantly under by the time Lebron/Wade/Melo/etc are available strategy.

The reason the strategy doesn't work in a lot of places is because they ain't NY. If the Knicks could compete financially on a guy like LeBron, they'd have him locked up in a heartbeat.

metirish
Feb 01 2006 12:06 AM

Kobe only had 40 tonight, he's useless...I tried watching but damn it's hard to watch the Knicks and then to watch Kobe ignore his team and try and score all the time...that was the first half, didn't watch the second.

Vic Sage
Feb 01 2006 12:53 PM

yeah, i'm ready to pull the plug on this collection of gutless, sloppy losers and their gm.

we should just play the kids with marbury from here on. This should be the 9-man rotation for the rest of the season:

PG - Marbury / Crawford / Robinson
SG - Crawford / Robinson / Ariza
SF - Woods / Ariza / Lee
PF - Frye / Lee / Butler
C - Curry / Butler / Frye

- q-rich, james and taylor on the bench
- hardaway, davis, rose inactive

let hardaway and davis contracts expire, and
try to trade any or all of: james, taylor, q-rich and rose

and if Brown has given up on marbury as a PG, then we have to try and move him, too.

Nymr83
Feb 01 2006 01:53 PM

i really wouldnt mind a multi-year effort to just let bad contracts expire and/or trade for picks, this team stiks and will stink until they get into the lottery (and actually make the pick themselves!) and are able to sign big name FAs

Elster88
Feb 01 2006 02:44 PM

Isiah being fired would be the first step in the right direction.

metirish
Feb 02 2006 08:45 PM

[url=http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/ny-spdavis0203,0,5641012.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines]Antonio's wife in another dispute[/url]

Elster88
Feb 02 2006 11:15 PM

I am not surprised at all.

metirish
Feb 03 2006 03:54 PM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Feb 03 2006 07:21 PM

ESPN is reporting that the Kninks trade Antonio Davis and wife to the Raptors for Jalen Rose and a draft pick.

I just heard on the radio that Rose is owed $17 million next year...yikes

Matt Murdock, Esq.
Feb 03 2006 07:12 PM

but its only one more year, and at least Rose can play, and fills a need at SF, and we get a 1st round pick back.

i'm ok with it.

on edit: i can't believe i wasted the sacred seaver post on the Knicks.

DOH!

ScarletKnight41
Feb 03 2006 07:13 PM

metirish
Feb 03 2006 07:22 PM

All Hail.....that first round pick is lottery protected though...I assume Larry Brown wanted him.

KC
Feb 03 2006 09:23 PM

That Seaver thing gives me freakin' nightmares. Last time I alluded to it,
my post disappeared, and I had nightmares for two nights.

The pick is Denvers, if I heard correctly, and they'll probably be a playoff
team from that weak division so the lottery thing don't matter.

Make that evil Seaver image go away NOW!!!

Johnny Dickshot
Feb 03 2006 09:29 PM

That's a great image. Whoever did that is a genius.

metirish
Feb 03 2006 09:40 PM

Thanks for the info KC, Brown is quite happy about the trade.

]

"He's exactly what we need," Brown said. "I think it's a no-brainer. I haven't seen a drop-off in his game. We don't have enough ball-handlers, guys that have experience back there."



[url=http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/ny-spktrade0204,0,3097777.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines]Happy as Larry[/url]

KC
Feb 04 2006 07:14 AM

I meant weak conference, but division works too.

Nightmares again, and I lost three fingernails for talking about that thing. Evil.

Matt Murdock, Esq.
Feb 04 2006 11:39 AM

I read that the pick is NOT Lottery protected. So, if Denver doesn't make the playoffs, it could end up being the #1 pick.

Even if it ends up being a pick in the low 20s, they now have 2 first rounders (the other will be a very low pick from San Antonio), which they could package (along with a player, perhaps) to move up, if there is somebody they've targeted likely to go higher.

Elster88
Feb 07 2006 09:14 AM

I love articles that discuss Isiah's incompentence:

CBA owners: Isiah nasty,
incompetent behind closed doors

By CHRISTIAN RED and T. J. QUINN
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITERS


Embattled Knicks president Isiah Thomas comes under fire from CBA team owners, who claim that ...


... despite image he projected in public, Thomas was nightmare to work with as owner of league in late 1990s.

They were so over-the-top, so strange and abusive, that Diane Bosshard used to gather her staff into her office just so they could hear the rants for themselves. Isiah Thomas would be on the other end of the conference calls, threatening and screaming at the general managers of the Continental Basketball Association.
"I wasn't supposed to let them listen, but I just had to have someone hear this," she says.

Thomas, who bought the league in 1999 and said he was going to turn it into a "Microsoft for basketball," would curse and threaten to "kick asses" if the teams from Sioux Falls, La Crosse, Boise and other small cities didn't see things his way.

"He ruled with intimidation," says Bosshard, who owned the La Crosse (Wis.) Bobcats with her husband Bill before selling to Thomas. "It was just like, 'If I swear enough or if I act like I'm tough enough you're going to back down.'"

In her brief time with Thomas, Bosshard says she never saw anything similar to the sexual harassment allegations made in former Knicks executive Anucha Browne Sanders' recently filed lawsuit. But the part about Thomas' temper and choice of words? That hit home, she says.

"When you hear (allegedly) this was said and this was done, I had a lot of compassion for her," Bosshard says of Browne Sanders. "The tone of what was said, the words that were used... it was very familiar."

In the lawsuit, Sanders says, "Contrary to Thomas' carefully cultivated public persona, he is capable of 'abhorrent behavior in private,'" and several former CBA officials say they saw such behavior during Thomas' 18 months in charge of the league.

"Just the rudest person that I have ever run into in my entire life," says Rich Coffey, the former GM of the Fort Wayne (Ind.) Fury and now the owner of the Fort Wayne Freedom in the Arena Football League. "He's a very poor business person. He doesn't listen to people. He's always right. He makes poor decisions, and I'm talking about the CBA in particular.

"Who he listens to are people who tell him what he wants to hear. The fact that he's still in basketball and running the Knicks just astounds me."

In his short tenure as the owner of the CBA, Thomas had hoped to build it into a massive enterprise that might serve as an official minor league to the NBA. Instead, he lost between $5 and $7 million, made very few friends and ran a 55-year-old league into bankruptcy just as he left to become the head coach of the Indiana Pacers. Most of the old owners and a few new ones bought the league out of Chapter 7and revived it.

"The (CBA) owners got their money back, but then there are the employees, the players and the fans who are season ticket holders who got nothing. I worked three or four months without pay after I had worked (with the Fury) for 10 years," says Coffey, a father of four. "You had the Sioux Falls, Boise and Fort Wayne franchises subsidizing the other (six) teams. They had to put up about $700,000. When I bought the Freedom four years ago, the first thing I said at a press conference with fans was, 'Isiah Thomas is not involved.'"

There were cheers from the crowd.

That Thomas now runs the show at the world's most famous arena is mind-boggling to the people he crossed paths with during the CBA debacle.

"I shook my head when I saw (that the Knicks had hired Thomas as their president). I thought, 'Geez. Maybe he can coach. We certainly know he can play - he's got a good basketball mind. But why would somebody not check into his business references?'" says Bill Ilett, the owner of the Idaho Stampede.

Bill Bosshard had the same reaction.

"Ownership egos are unbelievable. They want to rub bellies with sports guys, Isiah and these guys. They don't bother to check a guy's background. They look at the foreground, and the foreground's a guy's name and a smile," he says. "It's amazing how enthralled these guys can be - whether here or in Indiana or in New York, it's all the same."

Brendan Suhr, brought in by Thomas as the current Knicks' director of player personnel, was the CBA's director of basketball operations during Thomas's ownership tenure and has a different take. He says he doesn't understand why people like Ilett and Coffey are critical of Thomas.

"He's a piece of cake to deal with," Suhr says of Thomas. "We ran a very good business. And the New York Knicks are one of the great franchises in professional sports.

"I think the way we're running the business - we're not proud of our won/loss record - but I'll tell you what, our business record is very strong. What leaders do, they define reality every day and then they create hope and optimism for the people that work for them.

"That's what (Isiah) did (with the CBA)."

When Thomas first approached the nine CBA clubs about selling, several readily agreed and thought his name and contacts could make the league a gold mine. Under his proposal they would sell control but retain some ownership, with the promise of big paydays in the future. A few held out, however, saying they didn't think Thomas had a sufficient plan to run the league.

When the Bosshards finally sold, Diane stayed on as general manager, the only owner to do so. Former Celtic Dennis Johnson was then the team's coach, and Bosshard says he warned her and her husband that Thomas was "not the person you want to go into business with."

Johnson, now coaching the NBA's developmental league team in Austin, Tex., didn't directly answer when asked whether he recalled saying that. "Inside their dealings (with Isiah), I don't know," he told the Daily News. "All my business dealings with him have been court-wise."

Diane Bosshard says she was charmed by the Thomas she first met.

"There's an Isiah in front of cameras, and another behind closed doors. It really blew me away," she says. "Very handsome, well-spoken, three-piece suit, the smile, the (Thomas) that says 'everything's great because if I'm going to put my name on it there's no problem whatsoever, trust me and we're in this together.'

"We went from the very well-spoken Isiah to the Chicago Isiah that kind of got the lingo going and every other word was a swear word, and 'This is how it's going to be.' I thought, 'Oh my god...' I don't think we have as many f-words and swear words here."

Bosshard spoke to an issue that several CBA executives mentioned, a culture clash between an African-American celebrity raised on the rough streets of Chicago and the white, small-town residents he encountered.

But the real problem, Diane Bosshard says, was that Thomas never had a business plan to speak of, which made his business style untenable.

"(The owners) wanted to see a business plan. He was so mad about them not trusting him. He was going on and on about how this is all built on trust, cursing every other word," she says. "It wasn't like we were going to say, 'Okay, you win because you swore more than everybody else.'"

Ilett says Thomas did give them a plan, but there wasn't much to it.

"Did I look at an 80-page business plan? No. Did I look at an executive outline the way it was going to go? Yes," he says. "(Thomas') original thought was not to change very much, but to expand it tremendously."

Almost as soon as the changes were made, the league ran into trouble. Thomas hired marketing experts at $30,000 a month and paid Gallup $400,000 to do a survey on the CBA's management practices. League executives were astonished.

Coffey says he asked how Thomas could afford to expand the league's budget by $2.3 million and was told he would make it up from national sales (which never materialized).

"A few of us said, 'Hey, this isn't going to work.' To which his answer was, 'It is going to work and if you don't like it, quit.' Or 'I'll fire you,'" Coffey says.

Ilett says he and Thomas might have gotten off to a bad start because Ilett was one of the owners not eager to sell, but whatever the cause he soon found out Thomas was not all smiles.

"He tends to do business just like he played basketball," he says. "He's very clever and cunning and friendly until the rubber hits the road. And then he can really bow his back up and get pretty ornery and hard to get along with when he doesn't get his way. It would go from us being best friends to him calling me a little bit ethnic-related names."

Several CBA owners say they saw a competitive streak in Thomas that was relentless, making it impossible for him to compromise or listen to other opinions.

"He came to Boise when we were turning the ownership over to him. We did it at a Boys and Girls Club, which he is a former member of," Ilett says. "After the press conference, he met with some children. He was giving the old owl-eye smile that Isiah is good at when answering questions, and one little girl in the back of the room put up her hand and said, 'Isiah, why didn't you bring Michael Jordan with you?' Immediately, I could see his whole personality change and he actually went cold shoulder to the whole situation and finished it up and wandered out of there."

Current and former owners still can't believe Thomas turned down an offer to sell the league to the NBA for reportedly $2 million more than he paid.

"He bought (CBA) for like, $10 or $11 million. He then went to a Wall Street firm and decided he wanted to do an IPO and told (David) Stern he could buy it back, but it would be $30 million," Coffey recalls. "Stern said, 'Hell, I'll start my own league.'"

When the national sponsorships failed to materialize and the league ran out of revenue, Thomas accepted the job with the Pacers, put the league in a blind trust, sent a fax to the clubs that the league had ceased operations, and was gone, leaving more than $4 million in debts.

And as hard as it was to see their league fold, Diane Bosshard says, "You almost took some pride in the whole thing failing because you really didn't want to see it succeed with what was going on in the background."

The worst part, she says, was dealing with business owners and season-ticket holders in La Crosse who felt abandoned.

Adds her husband Bill, "And then he reappears at the Garden. It was amazing to me. And the world goes 'round."

ABG
Feb 08 2006 09:46 AM

]
"He's a piece of cake to deal with," Suhr says of Thomas. "We ran a very good business. And the New York Knicks are one of the great franchises in professional sports.

"I think the way we're running the business - we're not proud of our won/loss record - but I'll tell you what, our business record is very strong. What leaders do, they define reality every day and then they create hope and optimism for the people that work for them.

"That's what (Isiah) did (with the CBA)."

"Our business record is very strong." The highest payroll in the league, and the second worst record. No surefire lottery pick. Yeah, that's strong. I wish they were publicly traded so there could be some oversight.

Elster88
Feb 09 2006 01:38 PM

Simmons:
]First, I have a scoop for you: A well-placed source tells me that Isiah Thomas is prepared to trade Channing Frye and Penny Hardaway to Denver for Kenyon Martin and Earl Watson, but only if Martin agrees to an MRI on his surgically repaired knee. If Martin's knee is in good shape, the Knicks are calling off the deal. If the knee is in rough shape, the deal is on. If the knee is in such terrible shape that the doctor says something like, "Wow, there's a good chance K-Mart might walk with a limp for the rest of his life," the Knicks will throw in an unconditional No. 1 in 2009 as well as Nate Robinson and $3 million dollars. So stay tuned.

KC
Feb 09 2006 01:43 PM

They trade away Channing and I am SO done with this team.

KC
Feb 09 2006 01:46 PM

I guess that's what I get for paulie-ing quotes. I'm an assclown.

Elster88
Feb 09 2006 01:48 PM

I'm not sure what Paulie-ing means, but I'm pretty sure Simmons was joking.

metirish
Feb 09 2006 01:49 PM



from News article


]Thomas has ongoing conversations with several teams, including the Denver Nuggets, who are looking to trade ex-Net forward Kenyon Martin. The Nuggets want rookie Channing Frye included in the deal. Thomas would trade Frye, but he would insist on getting another player, possibly 6-11 center-forward Nene, in return.



http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/389850p-330742c.html

Antonio Davis had some choice things to say about the Knicks.

Elster88
Feb 09 2006 01:51 PM

That Daily News is not even that surprising, even if it is pretty funny.

We all knew Isiah was a shitty GM.
_________________
This post had the designation 67) Donn Clendenon

Centerfield
Feb 15 2006 02:15 PM

Trade deadline rumors include Stevie Francis to the Knicks. They also say Darko Milicic might be headed to Orlando.

I know Larry Brown is supposed to be a wonderful coach and all, but at what point does he admit that Darko was a mistake? Does he still claim that someday he'll be as good as Carmelo and Wade? How about Bosh or Hinrich?

Nymr83
Feb 15 2006 03:40 PM

Steve Francis wouldbe nice but what do the Knicks have to make it worth it? their 1st round picks for the next 10 years? when will this team get serious about rebuilding?

SI Metman
Feb 19 2006 01:37 AM

Tonight was the highlight of the Knicks season and the Knicks didn't even play a game.

KC
Feb 19 2006 08:51 AM

Just saw the Nate over Spud dunk - classic. His other dunks were impessive
as well. Giddeyup!

metirish
Feb 19 2006 09:51 PM

Basketball has fallen so far of my radar that I didn't even know it was All-Star weekend...saw the highlights today, very cool from Nate.

Elster88
Feb 20 2006 08:53 AM

Nymr83 wrote:
Steve Francis wouldbe nice but what do the Knicks have to make it worth it? their 1st round picks for the next 10 years? when will this team get serious about rebuilding?


Knick fans are so clueless.

The only trade that could be worse than one that brings Stevie Franchise to your team is the one that brings Stephon Marbury to your team.

seawolf17
Feb 22 2006 02:22 PM

[url=http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2339941]Steve Francis[/url], New York Knickerbocker.

metirish
Feb 22 2006 02:37 PM

I suppose if that's all they are giving up then I'm fine with it,next week it will be some other player, who cares?

Nymr83
Feb 22 2006 02:48 PM

the knicks didnt lose anything important here and are over the cap forever anyway, i actually like this trade.

MFS62
Feb 22 2006 02:49 PM

You should have seen them with Carl Braun and Al McGuire in the back court, with Ray Felix at center. And Darrell Imhoff, Kenny Sears, Richie Guerin, Willie Naulls, Dave Budd and "Jumpin'" Johnny Green filling out the roster over the years. (I was too late to see Sweetwater Clifton.)
Now those were some really bad basketball teams. No wonder they had to vacate the Garden each year when the circus and rodeo came to town. They stunk worse than the animals.

At least Felix did something Patrick Ewing was never able to do - pull down over 1,000 rebounds in an NBA season.

Later

Nymr83
Feb 22 2006 02:52 PM

Ewing had Mason and Oakley taking them away...its a real shame the mid-90's knicks never won as they WERE a great team.

MFS62
Feb 22 2006 03:04 PM

Nymr83 wrote:
Ewing had Mason and Oakley taking them away...its a real shame the mid-90's knicks never won as they WERE a great team.

When he was at Georgetown, he was coached by John Thompson, a seven footer who had been an NBA center with the Celtics, and learned his trade from Bill Russell. Thompson helped Ewing develop tremendous defensive/ rebounding skills. And that was the player the Knicks fans thought they were getting when they drafted him. But when Ewing joined the pros, it was as though he was let out of jail, free to play offense as he had not been permitted under Thompson. He became enamoured with his jump shot, and as his career progressed, he moved further away from under the basket, where he was needed.

You would think that with his build and skills he would have been able to get 1,000 boards in one season. But he never did. And that change in his game, never becoming what the team and the fans wanted and needed, is why I think that he was always a disappointment.

Later

Elster88
Feb 22 2006 04:21 PM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Feb 22 2006 05:01 PM

Nymr83 wrote:
the knicks didnt lose anything important here and are over the cap forever anyway, i actually like this trade.


Goddammit why doesn't anyone get it?

Yes they're over the cap. But one day they could be under the cap. If they keep making dumbass trades bringing assholes in here who make way too much money, they never will be. This trade just means it's going to take even longer until the payroll on this team can be manageable.

Shit fuck bitch ass.



And in what universe can Francis and Marbury possibly coexist on the same team?

Edit: grammar

seawolf17
Feb 22 2006 04:24 PM

Elster88 wrote:
And in what universe can Francis and Marbury possible coexist on the same team?

Only in the mystical place known as Knicksland, Home of NBA Hall of Famer Isiah Thomas.

SI Metman
Feb 22 2006 05:59 PM

Elster88 wrote:
="Nymr83"]the knicks didnt lose anything important here and are over the cap forever anyway, i actually like this trade.


Goddammit why doesn't anyone get it?

Yes they're over the cap. But one day they could be under the cap. If they keep making dumbass trades bringing assholes in here who make way too much money, they never will be. This trade just means it's going to take even longer until the payroll on this team can be manageable.

Shit fuck bitch ass.


AMEN!!

You get under the cap to build a team. You get under the cap to sign free agents that you can't trade for. Lebron James could be a Knick in 2007 if they were under the cap.

The only way to save this team is to let contracts expire, tank, get top draft picks that develop and then sign the one guy that puts you over the top once you are under the cap.

That won't happen until 2010 at the earliest now, which will probably be the next time the Knicks make the playoffs.

Look at what Isiah did for the Suns 2 seasons back. He took Marbury and Hardaway, the team malcontents from them for a bunch of expiring contracts. The Suns used the money under the cap to sign Steve Nash. They then watched as Amare Stoudamire made the leap to superstardom. Wam, Instant Title Contender in Phoenix because of smart financial planning.

Watch Orlando do the same thing now with malcontent Francis in NY and a bunch of cap space coming up to build around another young budding superstar in Dwight Howard. If they are smart downthere they will be a force to be reckoned with in the East 2 years from now. So will Chicago with the draft picks they are getting from the Knicks.

Nymr83
Feb 22 2006 06:35 PM

i disagree, i think that while rebuilding would have been nice its a little late for that... the knicks draft pick this year is gone, their pick next year will be the lower pick of their own and the bulls' pick. by the time the knicks are ready to get under the cap and make good draft picks again Francis' contract will probably be up too. This team is in the hole for YEARS right now, i don't think this made it any worse.

Elster88
Feb 22 2006 11:04 PM

It's very simple Nymr. Being over the cap until 2010 is worse than being over the cap until 2009. This is not hard to understand.

And this is never going to get better. They have some contracts expiring next year....and they're going to trade those away next year for contracts that expire in the future.



It is mind-boggling that Marbury, Francis, Jalen Rose, and Jamal Crawford are on the same team.


I can't think of two good NBA players------in history-----that would be worse on the same team than Marbury and Francis. I've been trying a while, and I can't.

metirish
Feb 22 2006 11:16 PM

And what about Brown coveting 'hard nosed' players that can play defence?, Francis is another shoot first guard, this team is full of those, reading various articles tonight it seems Crawford most likely will be traded to Denver for backup point guard Earl Watson ...here is a teaser form Newsday...

]

One NBA general manager said Thomas sold Knicks owner James Dolan on a strategy to stockpile as many marketable assets as possible to make a play for Garnett, who has grown increasingly restless with the Timberwolves, who now might be ready to consider trading him.


Thomas has certainly sold Dolan on something....naked pictures anyone?

Nymr83
Feb 22 2006 11:22 PM

Elster88 wrote:
It's very simple Nymr. Being over the cap until 2010 is worse than being over the cap until 2009. This is not hard to understand.


is that infact the effect of this deal or are you just speculating?

]And this is never going to get better. They have some contracts expiring next year....and they're going to trade those away next year for contracts that expire in the future.


the knicks overall stupidity doesnt make this deal stupid on its own

]It is mind-boggling that Marbury, Francis, Jalen Rose, and Jamal Crawford are on the same team.
I can't think of two good NBA players------in history-----that would be worse on the same team than Marbury and Francis. I've been trying a while, and I can't


i have a strong feeling that this was the prelude to the departure of coach brown's least favorite point guard in the offseason.

MFS62
Feb 23 2006 07:42 AM

Elster88 wrote:

And in what universe can Francis and Marbury possibly coexist on the same team?


That's what Knick fans said about Clyde/ Barnett and Clyde/ Monroe before they saw them operate in the same back courts. The only difference was that Clyde had a measurable basketball IQ..

Later

metirish
Feb 23 2006 08:22 AM

Ahh come on 62, to hear Larry Brown evoke those great players when talking about Marbury/Francis/Crawford was a freaking joke, just more spin .

MFS62
Feb 23 2006 09:04 AM

metirish wrote:
Ahh come on 62, to hear Larry Brown evoke those great players when talking about Marbury/Francis/Crawford was a freaking joke, just more spin .


Of course. But I was just recounting that when those players were added to the Knicks, fans had the same doubts about how they might fit together. Marbury is the only one of the current guards I would put in the class of the old guys. (EDIT: But that doesn't mean that Francis doesn't think that he's as good as the Pearl. :) )

Last night I was watching the Nets celebrate the 30th anniversary tribute to the last Championship basketball team in New York. It was great to see and hear Dr.J again, and see them wearing their retro--ABA unis. Come to think of it, Nets fans once wondered how Kidd, Carter and Jefferson could coexist, too.

Later

Elster88
Feb 23 2006 09:09 AM

MFS62 wrote:
="Elster88"]
And in what universe can Francis and Marbury possibly coexist on the same team?


That's what Knick fans said about Clyde/ Barnett and Clyde/ Monroe before they saw them operate in the same back courts. The only difference was that Clyde had a measurable basketball IQ..

Later


Are you really comparing Francis and Marbury to those guys? You're kidding, right?

TheOldMole
Feb 23 2006 09:14 AM

They still suck.

MFS62
Feb 23 2006 09:17 AM

88, you must have just missed my post above.
No, I'm not. I'm comparing fan concerns of the situation of trying to fit together parts that don't seem to fit. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. It was not meant to say that the players involved were comparable.

Later

Elster88
Feb 23 2006 09:35 AM

MFS62 wrote:
88, you must have just missed my post above.
No, I'm not. I'm comparing fan concerns of the situation of trying to fit together parts that don't seem to fit. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. It was not meant to say that the players involved were comparable.


Yup, I did miss it.

In this case, I think my concerns are completely justified. Time will tell.

I also wasn't around for the older players.

Edgy DC
Feb 23 2006 09:38 AM

Elster, your turn in the band challenge.

Centerfield
Feb 23 2006 11:19 AM

July 2005

Isiah Thomas: Trust me Joe, let the jerk out of his contract. He'll come sign here and then we can really fuck with him.

Joe Dumars: Let him out? Are you crazy? He's pulling that "I'm getting pushed out" crap again.

Isiah: Listen to me, as soon as he gets here, I'm trading the only guy on the team who can rebound for Quentin Richardson, then I'll send an unprotected lottery pick to the Bulls for Eddie Curry.

Joe: Keep talking...

Isiah: Every time an overrated player making the max becomes available, I'll trade whatever expiring contracts we have for them. I'll make sure we're over the cap for his entire contract. He'll never even sniff the playoffs.

Joe: Can you really do this? What sort of players?

Isiah: Right now I'm looking at either Jalen Rose or Stevie Francis. Either one will make him crazy...

Joe: (chuckling) This sounds good. Are you sure you want to do this? Oh man, you should try to get them both! Do you think that would make it too obvious?

Isiah: And the genius part will be, about a week before the trades, I'll ask him to submit a list of players he likes, then completely ignore it!

Joe: (hysterical) Ha ha ha ha ha...stop it Isiah, my sides hurt...ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Elster88
Feb 23 2006 01:26 PM

That is funny.

But my belief is that Isiah is just an idiot.

Nymr83
Feb 23 2006 01:47 PM

FYI, Elster, Francis has 3 years remaining (at 13m) which is the same as Stephon "the cap-killer" Marbury (16m.) The Knicks werent going to get under the cap with Marbury anyway so i dont see how this has pushed the rebuilding back any. If this leads to Marbury's departure this summer, as i expect it will, it will actually save money (depending on what crap the moron takes back then)

Elster88
Feb 23 2006 03:27 PM
Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Feb 23 2006 03:41 PM

My head hurts from banging it on my keyboard.

Do you think this team would be better off with Frye and Curry getting more looks, or with Steve Francis coming in and hoisting up 20 shots per game?

In the past month with the pickups of Rose and Franchise, I'm guessing that Frye and Curry will get half the touches per game they did earlier in the season. Forget about guys like Lee getting any quality PT at all.



I'm angry. I need to take an anger-management class. I shouldn't be angry that my team sucks. I shouldn't be angry that some folks apparently think picking up Francis was anything but a completely idiotic move in every possible way.

Isiah is the guy people go to when they want to get someone off their team.

Elster88
Feb 23 2006 03:30 PM

Nymr83 wrote:
If this leads to Marbury's departure this summer, as i expect it will, it will actually save money (depending on what crap the moron takes back then)


No one is taking Marbury. The moron is Isiah for getting him in the first place.

Elster88
Feb 23 2006 03:38 PM

Nymr83 wrote:
FYI, Elster, Francis has 3 years remaining (at 13m) which is the same as Stephon "the cap-killer" Marbury (16m.)


Not even close.


Marbury:

05-06: 16.45 mil
06-07: 18.28 mil
07-08: 20.11 mil
08-09: 21.94 mil

Francis:

05-06: 13.77 mil
06-07: 15.07 mil
07-08: 16.44 mil
08-09: 17.18 mil

[url=http://www.hoopshype.com/]Source[/url]

Nymr83
Feb 23 2006 07:05 PM

my source was the "trade calculator" on ESPN.com, which apparently decided to provide less accurate information, Marbury still makes more per year though so i'll ask this: If I'm right and Marbury is gone after this year do you approve of this trade?

Elster88
Feb 23 2006 09:00 PM

Not really. I'd like them to get rid of Marbury the same as you. But I don't see how one goes with the other. If they have the ability to trade Marbury, I assume they could've still traded him without picking up Franchise. Even though he has a cool nickname, I'd still rather have no Marbury and no Francis. Don't you agree?

And I still don't think anyone is gonig to be so stupid to take Marbury. That's Isiah's job.

Nymr83
Feb 23 2006 10:17 PM

i'd like to get rid of EVERYONE, but barring that i'd just like to keep our draft picks. getting under the cap is necessary but the biger necessity is to build from within, after 4-5 years of mediocrity the knicks have finally gotten to where they needed to be- TERRIBLE and high in the lottery... only the pick isnt theirs and might not be next year either, and THAT is the problem

metirish
Feb 23 2006 10:19 PM

The Knicks need what helped the NY Rangers, a lockout and then the ability to buy out contracts after that.

Vic Sage
Feb 24 2006 10:31 AM

Getting Francis has no real impact on the Knicks' long-term salary cap situation. They were going to be capped out for the same duration of his contract anyway, due to Marbury's contract (and the bad deals for Crawford, M.Rose and James amongst others)

The only question, then, is whether having Francis makes them better today than having Ariza and Hardaway (yes, it does), and whether having Francis gives them more tradeable assets in the off-season (yes, it does), and whether he can help the team long-term (i think he can).

The moaning about the shots this will cost Frye, Lee, Robinson and Curry is not sensible to me because (1) those guys have had plenty of shots this year, and have done little with them, and (2) Francis's ability to handle the ball and penetrate will create MORE shots for Frye and Curry than they'd get with Crawford or Richardson at the #2 (or the #1).

D.Lee wasn't playing BEFORE the Francis deal (which is a mistake, i think), so i don't see what the deal has to do with his playing time. The two guys this will effect is Robinson and Richardson, because Francis will get their minutes. Richardson has been a disaster, so i'm fine with him giving his minutes to Stevie. As for Robinson, I'm not a big fan. He's just as much a mistake-prone, low-BB IQ type of player as Francis, without the credentials, and without the rebounding and passing skills. And if this move keeps Crawford away from the point, where he is a total clusterfuck, we've already improved the team.

If Brown lets them play, i think a lineup with Marbury, Francis and Rose will be able to move the ball all around the floor, and run and gun with anybody. I can see Frye and Curry doing better in this type of game than a strict, conservative half-court set.

Elster88
Feb 24 2006 10:38 AM

Despite his ability to slash to the basket, I don't see how adding a guy who is "me first" creates more shots for others under any circumstances.

And even though they haven't done a heck of lot (except Frye), I'd like to give them more than 3/4 of a year to show what they can do. And adding Francis and Rose to the team severly hampers their chances to improve.

metirish
Feb 25 2006 09:11 PM

WOW, did you see the debacle of a game last night?, well it's worse tonight, Knicks taking a pounding in DC...horrible to watch.

Nymr83
Feb 25 2006 09:34 PM

the knicks have been horrible to watch for quite some time now.

metirish
Feb 25 2006 09:40 PM

Yeah they have, they seem even worse now , the Wizards had 71 points in the first half, 110 to 89, Marbury apparently is injured again, he never played in the second half.

Elster88
Feb 27 2006 03:42 PM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Feb 27 2006 04:26 PM

The NBA in a nutshell:

]During the Wizards' rout, a heckler yelled at new Knick Steve Francis, "Hey Stevie, Where are you going next?" Francis turned to the fan and quipped, "To the bank."

Elster88
Feb 27 2006 04:14 PM

]Thomas ripped James after the trading deadline, saying every player on his team has trade value except James. During a "Q&A" session Wednesday with season-ticket holders, one fan reprimanded Thomas, telling him he made a mistake signing the 7-1, 300-pound James to a five-year, $30 million pact. Thomas told the fan he was right.


Couldn't the genius have listened to the thousands of people who told him James was a dumb idea before the move?

metirish
Feb 27 2006 04:24 PM

That's just classic from Francis, and how wouild James have trade value with that bloated contract, I'd like to have seen that Q&A, Thoams can seem real sincere when bullshitting.

metirish
Feb 28 2006 09:26 AM

can it become more of a joke?....



http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/60413.htm

metirish
Mar 01 2006 10:30 AM

Bret Sabermetric
Mar 03 2006 12:39 PM

I just got tickets to tonight's Knick game against the Bulls, one of the few they have a chance to win this season. Is this exciting, or what?

metirish
Mar 03 2006 12:44 PM

This Bulls team plays the Knicks good, Ben Gordon loves to beat them, this game might feature no defence, enjoy.

Elster88
Mar 03 2006 01:03 PM

You could probably scalp them for $20.

MFS62
Mar 03 2006 01:14 PM

Larry Brown was taken to the hospital with chest pains last night.
They feared a heart attack, but it was only indigestion.
Considering the current state of the Knicks, either diagnosis was possible.

Later

Bret Sabermetric
Mar 03 2006 11:45 PM

Well, that certainly sucked. I don't want to shock anyone, but IMO the Knicks are not a good basketball team.

They actually had a lead throughout most of the fourth period, but gave it away in the last minute or two. Gordon and Heinrick just killed them, penetrating and hitting treys at will. The Knicks offense is unbelievable--you have to see them live to appreciate how they just fucking stand there on offense. If you don't actually have the ball on this team, you're a specatator.

In the final minute Brown called a timeout, and either the whole team just forgot what he told them between the bench and the first second of play, or else Brown's masterplan was "Stand around and force a bad shot in traffic." Channing Frey played well in the first half, and then hardly played at all in the second half. Are these guys even trying? It was awful, like watching a pickup game on W. 4th street, only less team-oriented.

OlerudOwned
Mar 04 2006 05:27 PM

metirish wrote:
The Knicks need what helped the NY Rangers, a lockout and then the ability to buy out contracts after that.
They had the chance to buy out Allan Houston's contract. The one time deal was even dubbed "The Allan Houston Rule' because he would've been the biggest relief for any team using it.


Except the Knicks didnt.

http://realgm.com/src_feature/205/20051003/houston_sues_nba_for_rights_to_

Nymr83
Mar 04 2006 06:10 PM

]The preceding article was a piece of satirical fiction.


and sadly i didn't fully realize it until i saw the name of Houston's "lawyer" - well known author Alan Dershowitz

Elster88
Mar 09 2006 09:50 AM

Kendra Davis pleaded not guilty to misdemeanor battery charges of throwing hot coffee on a woman during a traffic altercation.

Willets Point
Mar 09 2006 11:21 AM

Knicks find a way to get some wins. Also analysts on if the NBA playoffs started now.

MFS62
Mar 09 2006 11:38 AM

The link on that site to the article about Vince Young's test score was priceless.
Thanks,
Later

seawolf17
Mar 09 2006 12:12 PM

edit: placed in wrong thread

TheOldMole
Mar 09 2006 10:51 PM

The Gladwell Strategy:

] many NBA General Managers--especially Isiah Thomas of the Knicks--could do a better job if they abandoned any pretense at all about exercising their own judgement. It would make more sense, I wrote, simply to draft or trade for players who attended either Duke or the University of Connecticut.

Here's part of the argument:

Let's say I'm so dumb about basketball that all I know is that the best college programs in the country are Duke and UConn, and so as a GM my rule is only draft and/or trade for the first and second best players, in any given year, from those two schools. So I fire all my scouts. I disband my front office, and basically say that I cede my basketball judgment to Jim Calhoun and Mike K. What's my team? It's some combination of Elton Brand, Emeka Okafor, Ben Gordon, Luol Deng, Shane Battier, Mike Dunleavy, Rip Hamilton, Corey Maggette, Jay Williams, Caron Butler, Donyell Marshall and Grant Hill -- which is a really wonderful team. Now, of course, in the real world I couldn't get all those people, because lots of them were really high draft picks. But let's say I got Brand in a trade, after Chicago soured on him, and I was lucky enough to be in the lottery for Okafor. Maggette was a 13; Hamilton and Deng were 7s; and Butler was a 10 -- so at least some of them are doable, particularly since in off-years for Duke and UConn I can trade down and stockpile picks. Battier I wine and dine in the free agent market, because who wants to be stuck in Memphis? Ditto for Gordon, who, it seems, Chicago is thinking of moving anyway. Is that the best team in the league? No. It is better than the Knicks? Absolutely. The point is that clinging to a very simple rule of thumb here -- that doesn't require knowing much about basketball -- can leave you looking pretty smart.

A reader points out that I neglected to mention one of the very best UConn players--Ray Allen. And given that, I think I was mistaken to say that an all-Duke/UConn team wouldn't be the best in the league. Think of it (assuming you could put together all those players). Okafor at center. Brand, Maggette and Battier at forward. Some combination of Grant Hill and Rip Hamilton and Ben Gordon and Ray Allen in the backcourt. Is there a better team in the league than that?



http://gladwell.typepad.com/gladwellcom/2006/03/nba_heuristics.html

Centerfield
Mar 16 2006 01:33 PM

The Marbury - Brown Feud heats up:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/400182p-339045c.html

For what it's worth, I think Steph is getting a raw deal here. Fact of the matter is, Steph did try it Brown's way...and it hasn't been working. As a coach, you're supposed to try to put your players in the best position to win. If your philosophy doesn't match the roster, you have to change your philosophy. If you tried to make the 1980's Celtics run, you'd lose. If you tried to slow down the Showtime Lakers, you'd lose. If you made the current Phoenix team slow it down and become defense oriented, they'd lose. There's enough talent on this team to win...Brown just hasn't figured it out how to do it yet.

And Marbury does have a point, Brown has been critical of him in the press. Granted the "Starbury" comment was pretty stupid, but I think he has a right to fire back or, at least, address the criticisms of him. Here's a guy who's been playing hurt and his coach does nothing but hint that his poor defense comes from a lack of focus or a lack of commitment to the team. I think that's unfair. Some guys are just not great defenders...it doesn't mean they're not trying. Steve Nash stinks on defense. You don't see his coach questioning his effort.

Edgy DC
Mar 16 2006 01:38 PM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Mar 16 2006 01:41 PM

] If you tried to slow down the Showtime Lakers, you'd lose.


Nah. Come on. I see what you're trying to say here, but no way. Kareem and Magic we're two of the best post-up players ever.

Elster88
Mar 16 2006 01:40 PM

That's silly.

Firstly, They players haven't tried implementing the system at all. The system is all about defense and rebouding. The current players don't play defense or rebound. Like Brown said, if the system doesn't work after the Knicks stop fouling so much, play defense, rebound, and not turn the ball over, then you can talk about needing a new system.

Secondly, you don't take a system that has worked for 20 years, try it for 3/4 of the year, and then throw out the system after failing to execute it in that short timespan.

That's all I got for now.

Centerfield
Mar 16 2006 02:32 PM

The system is all about defense and rebouding....Like Brown said, if the system doesn't work after the Knicks stop fouling so much, play defense, rebound, and not turn the ball over, then you can talk about needing a new system.

Frankly, every system involves rebounding, avoiding fouls and limiting turnovers, so I'm not sure that those things are really at issue here. The variable in most philosophies is a commitment to defense, and the style of offense. Some teams focus on slowing it down, playing grinding defense and wearing you down physically. The 90's Knicks were this type of team. Other teams play wide-open...run at every opportunity...these teams feel that no matter how many points you score, they can score more. The Mavericks and Suns are good examples of this philosophy. At issue here, is what should be done with the Knicks.

As a coach, you can do one of two things:

a) Commit to a style of play that emphasizes defense, such as Brown is doing here. If this is the case, you must assemble a roster of players capable of succeeding in this mode. Steve Nash, Allen Iverson, and well, Stephon Marbury are not what you are looking for. Expect to struggle until you've constructed a roster capable of playing in this style.

or

b) Take a look at the players you have and figure out the style of play that puts this particular group of players in the best situation to win. If you have a dominant center, maybe you want to feature a post-up centered office. If you have four guards, maybe wide-open is the way to go. If you got five guys who can't play a lick of defense but can all shoot the lights out, try to win games 120-115. Pat Riley ran at every opportunity with the Showtime Lakers, then played a grinding, bruising style with the Knicks. He adapted to his roster.

you don't take a system that has worked for 20 years, try it for 3/4 of the year, and then throw out the system after failing to execute it in that short timespan.

I’m not sure what you mean by “worked for 20 years” but there are plenty of teams that have been successful without playing under Brown’s system. Teams have been successful employing a number of styles, run and gun, grinding and slow, even this so-called “Triangle Offense”. Any of the different philosophies can be successful just as long as the personnel matches the style of play. Which brings us to the Knicks...

They players haven't tried implementing the system at all.


Are we sure about that? How do we know that? How do we know that it isn’t that they’ve tried and failed? Maybe they just can't do it. Maybe the personnel just doesn't match the style of play.

I think the general feeling around fans is that inability on offense is due to lack of talent, where struggling on defense is due to lack of effort. Nothing can be further from the truth. Defense is a skill...and some guys just aren’t good defenders. And it’s unfair to blame them because we want them to be something they’re not. It would be silly for a coach to say we’re going to run our offense around Charles Oakley, and then blame him for not being a 30 point guy. Who is really to blame in that situation? Oakley or the coach? Likewise, it’s equally as unfair for a coach to take a team full of poor defenders, institute a style of play that requires strong defense, and then question their effort when the team struggles.

Centerfield
Mar 16 2006 02:48 PM

Edgy DC wrote:
] If you tried to slow down the Showtime Lakers, you'd lose.


Nah. Come on. I see what you're trying to say here, but no way. Kareem and Magic we're two of the best post-up players ever.


You're right. The Showtime Lakers could have won under any philosophy, including one that involved sitting out the first quarter while letting the other team build as big a lead as possible.

But like you said, you know what I'm getting at.

Edgy DC
Mar 16 2006 02:50 PM

One of the points of Harvey Araton and Filip Bondy's The Selling of the Green was a harsh critique of the proliferation of the "system coach," the white guy coach who gets a rep as a genius, then goes from place to place, instilling his system. If ever his team fails, he's immune from criticism because the the players failed to adapt to the coach's system --- never because the coach failed to adapt his system to the players' talents. Araton and Bondy are pretty frank in portraying this as a racist process.

I'm sympathetic to the the argument, though I was disappointed because they kind of held up Hubie Brown as the embodiment of the "system coach" culture, and I liked Hubie.

Nymr83
Mar 16 2006 04:19 PM

Ditch the players not the system. The system has worked, the players haven't. (how many rings does this collection of over-paid under-talented guys have?)
I don't buy into crap about adapting to players who don't play defense, players like that should be shipped out of town just like hitters who can't get on base.

Centerfield
Mar 16 2006 05:55 PM

And if that is the philosophy, so be it. Essentially, you're choosing choice "a" from my post above. But that means until this roster turnover takes place, you can expect the team to struggle. And keep this in mind, if everything I'm hearing about the Knicks' contracts is true and these players really are immoveable, then you're going to be stuck with these players playing in a system ill-designed to utilize their talent for many years. In other words, the Knicks are going to suck for a long time. If you can live with that, all the power to you.

And although Knick fans have every right to dislike the players for not being good defensive players, I think it's unfair to say that the poor defense comes from a lack of effort. Sure, some of them might not be trying, but some of them might be trying and incapable. There's just no way to know.

In any case, the way I see it, if these guys are here for a while, why not try to win a few games along the way. Isn't that why they traded for Francis? So they could win a few games while they're capped out? Open it up...it's not like they have anything to lose. They have the worst (or very close) record in the NBA. Hell, why not try something else.

Nymr83
Mar 16 2006 10:53 PM

well, if they hadn't foolishly traded their pick to the bulls there'd be a good reason to try and lose games. as it is they are over the cap and hopeless. at the end of the day i dont care if they win 15 games or 25 games, as long as they are doing something to work for the day when they will be able to win more. i think this means letting contracts expire and to stop taking on new ones. i also think benching guys like marbury to make a point is a good idea. play defense or sit. can't play defense? retire.

Frayed Knot
Mar 16 2006 11:05 PM

Perhaps Stephon could try adding some more tatoos to his neck to see if that would help his game.

Vic Sage
Mar 17 2006 10:25 AM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Mar 17 2006 10:30 AM

i agree with CF up to a point.

Stephon has become Brown's whipping boy, and its not entirely warranted. Also, i don't think anything stephon said is untrue.

And i agree that you need to fit your system to the personnel, not insist your personnel fit within a pre-ordained system. HOWEVER...

Larry Brown is not a "system" coach. He has a philosophy, not a system, and its an entirely valid philosophy that has worked everywhere he's coached. All he requires is that his players play "smart" (no stupid fouls or stupid shots, take care of the ball), play "hard" (go for loose balls, take the charge, box out, put your body on the guy you're defending and put your hands up in their face) and play "as a team" (share the ball, find the best shot, rotate on defense).

Frankly, its as much a system as breathing is a system for living. I can't imagine a successful team that doesn't try to do these things, whether they run & gun, post-up, full-court press, walk it up and grind it out, or whatever.

As to matching his philosophy to his talent, i don't see how he can NOT require these things of any group of players, and i view any player that can't or won't do these things as being a subpar basketball player, regardless of his quickness, leaping ability or shooting touch.

As to the claim that "defense is a talent"... I think shot-blocking is a distinct talent and skill, and the Knicks don't have any. Rebounding, too, but the knicks actually have decent rebounding overall... not great, but adequate. Other than that, however, I don't agree that defense is a separate skill or talent, like having a shooting touch. If a guy has the quickness to break down a guy off the dribble, then he obviously has the quickness to stay in front of a guy who is trying to do that to him. If a guy has enough court vision to make a behind the back pass/assist, then he has enough vision to step in front of another guy's pass.

Now, of course, there are good offensive players who aren't particularly quick, or strong, or big, and so are at a defensive disadvantage. The good ones, however, overcome those obstacles by being smarter... positioning, anticipation, etc.

The knicks, however, are a team of excellent athletes. But the facts are that many of the players are not staying in front of their assigned players, not helping out, not giving hard fouls to players coming into the paint, not anticipating, and not boxing out. That is about IQ and effort, not skill or talent. If it was just about skill and talent, then it would impossible to explain why a particular squad goes from a bad defensive team to a good one in one season, based simply on a coaching change (and its happened many a time).

This is not a situation of forcing players into Rick Pitino's full-court press, or Hubie's half-court style, or Fratello's D, or Don Nelson's "point forward" system. This is a case of a coach asking a group of stupid, selfish, lazy players to stop being stupid, selfish and lazy.

The problem is the way Brown has gone about things has publicly humiliated not only "Starbury" but others on the squad as well, and he lost them. The fact that he has buried David Lee and Malik Rose, despite the fact that they're EXACTLY the kind of players Brown claims to want, is exasperating.

I think there is enough blame to go around, and i don't see it changing anytime soon.

Elster88
Mar 17 2006 10:29 AM

]The problem is the way Brown has gone about things has publicly humiliated not only "Starbury" but others on the squad as well, and he lost them.


Marbury started it.

Nymr83
Mar 17 2006 04:02 PM

]Frankly, its as much a system as breathing is a system for living


L M A O.

Brown has proven that HE knows how to coach a winner, has Marbury shown he can play like a winner?

Nymr83
Mar 24 2006 09:46 PM

One of the season's few bright spots, rookie Channing Frye, is out the rest of the year thanks to his teammate pushing an opposing player into him.

Elster88
Apr 14 2006 02:02 PM

Stephon Marbury is the embodiment of everything that is wrong with professional athletes today.

[url]http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/64507.htm[/url]

April 14, 2006 -- CLEVELAND - With ominous and insubordinate remarks, Stephon Marbury restarted the feud with Larry Brown yesterday, lashing out again about his distaste for the Knicks coach's system this season and defiantly repeating the "Starbury" moniker.
"I don't care what [Brown] wants to hear," Marbury said at one juncture. "I'm telling you what I'm going to do."

Marbury said he will reveal more salty stuff once the season ends, during getaway day next Thursday, but yesterday gave a sharply-worded preview that torpedos hopes the guard and the coach can co-exist next year.

Marbury said, stronger then ever, Brown is to blame for the Knicks' catastrophic 22-56 record. Marbury joked that he has asked the Knicks' PR staff for a podium next week to air his views.



Marbury is either trying to force a trade or force Brown's ouster, and he took a large step toward that goal yesterday before the Knicks' 91-87 loss to the Cavaliers last night.

The latest firebombs occurred after Brown acknowledged Marbury is expected to be out for the final five games because his sore knee is still hurting. As such, Marbury may have played his last game as a Knick, as the team undoubtedly will shop him this summer, with Minnesota a top candidate. Unless, that is, Brown goes first.

Reflecting on his future with Brown, Marbury said: "There have been people who played for a coach who didn't see things the same way, and it worked out. I don't see why it can't work out. But like I said, and I'm going to say it again: I played like Stephon Marbury this year. Next year, I'm going to play like 'Starbury.' "

Minutes earlier, Brown said Marbury needed to spend the summer deciding whether he wants to become a team player. Brown has said he'd like Marbury to play shooting guard next season.

"I think he's got to make up his mind to continue to improve," Brown said of Marbury. "I think that's what all good players do. We've got to make our teammates better. I don't know if I want him as a point guard. I want him as a basketball player."

Marbury, asked about being traded, said: "I'm going to be back in New York. I'm not going anywhere, I don't think. Not as far as I know. I don't see why I would be anyplace else other than New York."

By stirring up the feud, Marbury appears to be issuing an ultimatum to Knicks president Isiah Thomas: Either Brown goes or Marbury does.

Marbury said his injuries (22 games missed by season's end) didn't cost the Knicks the season, but de-emphasizing his part in the offense did.

"I wasn't really that big of an integral part this year," said Marbury. "What I was called on to do, I wasn't able to exploit this year. I mean, if things would have been in place the way they were supposed to, I don't think we would have been in this situation. But that just didn't happen. So, stay tuned, though. You'll hear it.

"We'll talk about that the last day we get to speak. Don't worry. I'll answer all y'all's questions."

Marbury's remarks broke a month-long peace treaty that had followed the last round of barbs between player and coach. That featured the point guard calling out Brown for his "insecurities" after the coach compared their resumés.

Thomas has remained mum through all this, having not spoken in seven weeks, and does not plan to talk until the day after the season. Marbury's boldness could reflect Thomas' support. Marbury even said, "This has been the best year of my life."

During yesterday's shoot-around, Marbury stayed in the training room, getting treatment, with fellow disgruntled guard Steve Francis, who is out with back spasms. They appeared at the end, but Marbury didn't join the team huddle that concluded the shoot-around.

"I hope he wants what I want," Brown said of Marbury. "I hope he wants to win games and make his teammates better. That's the only thing that really matters. I think he wants to win badly . . . and if he plays like he played before he got hurt [in January], we'll win games next year."

TheOldMole
Apr 14 2006 02:05 PM

Meanwhile,. Brown's in the hospital, right?

metirish
May 15 2006 10:03 AM

Reports are that James Dolan is ready to buy out Larry Brown's contract and replace him with Isiah Thomas, only in Dolans world does a Don Chaney get three years as coach and Larry Brown gets one..

Elster88
May 15 2006 10:05 AM

Where are these reports?

metirish
May 15 2006 10:07 AM

They were all over the media yesterday, here is a link ..

http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/ny-spknix154742938may15,0,3805835.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines

Vic Sage
May 15 2006 12:09 PM

Unbelievable.

Clearly, Brown has not been able to motivate this collection of "players", and clearly Isiah can't and won't be able to trade everybody on the roster to accomodate him. Still, even under these circumstances, the notion of trading Brown for Thomas behind the bench is stomach-turning.

The Curry deal will haunt this franchise for years, but Coach Isiah will only exacerbate the problem. He'll try to justify the deal by continuing to build around this gutless, apathetic piece of crap in the middle. Right now, I'd sooner see Jackie Butler get the majority of minutes at center rather than Chicken Curry.

Looking at the roster now, i only see about six guys i'd even CONSIDER keeping (and obviously none of them are untouchable):

1) J.Crawford -- he showed great improvement last year, and a willingness to work and play D, and his erratic scoring can be explosive.

2) D.Lee -- this good rebounder and hard worker moves better than I thought. A good PG would get him the ball on the run and he'd score more consistently.

3) C.Frye -- talented scorer, runs the floor, not a bad rebounder, blocks a few shots, and might turn himself into a decent defender.

4) J.Butler -- their best big man right now, he'd be an adequate backup at PF and C on a good team.

5) M.Rose -- They probably couldn't move his contract anyway, and he shouldn't play much, but he's another hard-working defender that could come off the bench at SF or PF.

6) Q-Richardson -- He stopped scoring when he stopped playing with Nash. Coincidence? I don't think so. His bad back and contract would make him difficult to move, but he's also a SF/SG who plays good man-on-man D against the other team's best scorer. He too would score with a PG intererested in getting him the ball on the move.

Not a single one of these guys is a starter on a good team. we have no franchise players.

- These 5 guys are on the bubble:

7) Nate Robinson -- indesputably talented, he's apparently an asshole and might be uncoachable. He plays with incredible energy and limitless stupidity. And any effort to make him a PG is doomed. But do you want to give up on a guy who can do what he can do, this early?

8) Q.Woods -- another troublemaker, he doesn't have the talent to make up for it. Still, he was OK as a role-player.

9) Curry -- I'd use him for mulch, but i think they'll probably have to stick with him for another year or 2. Maybe if he comes in next season in better shape, he has a chance to be a decent low-post scorer with some consistency. I'm doubtful he'll ever be a rebounding, shot-blocking defender, but if they get a PF who is, Curry can still be useful.

10) Marbury -- i STILL think he might work out, under a different coach. He can be unstoppable. Anyway, his huge contract makes him virtually untradeable based on his current status as a "dog", so they might as well let him try again. It would be best for everybody if they could move him to SG.

11) Francis - wow, does this guy suck. At least he can't play in the same lineup as Marbury, so they've got to choose between those 2. They should trade the one they can get more for.

- Just take these guys out and shoot em:

12) J.Rose -- A big expiring contract makes this guy a possible chip...

13) M.Taylor -- ditto...

14) J. James -- A bigger dog than Curry, which is hard to imagine. Somebody might want to take a chance on a big man, so let them.

15) Ime Udoka -- this late season pickup from the USBL is just a roster spot waiting to happen.

I think our bargaining chips this off-season are:
- 2 expiring deals (J.Rose, Taylor),
- the potential of Robinson,
- the talent of Francis,
- the size of James
- the low and mid-cap exceptions, and
- 2 low 1s- round picks.

I hope they use some combination of these to find any or all of the following starters: a passing PG, a defending/rebounding PF, and a shooting SF.

If they move all the dross off the roster and fill all 3 holes in the starting rotation, they're a playoff team. It they fill 2 holes, they'll be a .500 team; if only 1 hole is filled, they'll be better but still not good. If they fill holes by creating new ones, they're running in place.

Kenyon Martin? His knees are shot, and his long-term deal would further paralyze any rebuilding process. Speedy Claxton isn't exactly what i had in mind, either.

As long as Isiah's at the helm, I see years of darkness ahead.

PG: ____, Marbury, Robinson
SG: Marbury, Crawford, Q-Rich
SF: ____, Q-Rich, D.Lee
PF: ____, Frye, M.Rose
C: Curry, Butler, Frye

to be traded: Francis, J.Rose, M.Taylor, J.James
probably released: Woods, Udoka

Frayed Knot
May 15 2006 02:01 PM

I liked the letter to the editor in one of the sports sections yesterday figuring that it's probably only a matter of time before the Knicks take Randy Johnson off the Yankees' hands since he appears to fit all their criteria: he's tall, over-the-hill, and makes far too much money

Centerfield
May 15 2006 02:34 PM

I'm honestly surprised that Knicks fans aren't more upset with Brown. He did nothing to help their causes this season with his public criticism of his players. In a sense, he was constantly trying to push the blame on management by implying he didn't have the "type of player" he needed to win. An unfair position considering (1) knew who the players were when he signed his big deal, and (2) he condoned the deals that were made after he signed, including the Curry deal, the Francis deal and the Jalen Rose deal.

Vic Sage
May 15 2006 03:19 PM

oh, we're pretty upset with Brown, CF.

Its just that he, at least, has a resume of success that still gives us hope of better days, if he were ever given the support of management, rather than their constantly undermining him.

In other words, we'd be MORE upset with Brown if we didn't already have Isiah and Dolan as the appropriate targets for our collective ire.

metirish
May 16 2006 11:35 AM

So the denials have started, Brown's agent saying he spoke with Thomas and he has no intention of firing him, of course they've not spoken with Dolan and reports I've read say Brown has been trying for a week to have a meeting with him.

Starbury says he could care less weather Brown is fired or back.

Bret Sabermetric
May 16 2006 12:46 PM

So let's try this again: how exactly is your clear contempt for the Knicks' organization and its players different from my "disgraceful" opinion of the Mets? As a loyal Knicks fan, if I were to post a version of GYC's comment about me (you know, the one ending with "I hate you," to choose a recent example), would it be received as supportively as GYC's post was, or would you rip me a new anal aperture?

Can someone explain the difference here, without displaying too much overt hypocrisy, please?

Vic Sage
May 16 2006 01:07 PM

first of all, since you were responding to my post with dripping sarcasm that had little to do with anything i've ever said or implied (namely that criticism of the Mets was "disgraceful"), i felt justified in responding in kind.

as to your question: the difference is that i don't think your criticisms of the Mets are disgraceful at all. I cannot speak for others but, to the degree i've ever had an issue with you, its NOT been about your criticism of the Mets, but about your need to turn various threads on various Mets-related topics into (1) your soapbox on the one issue of your percieved "Mets stupidity", or (2) a weepy diatribe announcing your self-described martyrdom because you dare speak the truth!, or (3) both.

When addressing your Mets-related content, i used to agree with you more than i disagreed (at least in the old MOFO days), but i've managed, by and large, to disagree with you without descending into vitriol. Often, my issue with you is one of the logic of your arguments; i often feel you make bald assertions without supporting it, and if i make that point, i'm being a "sophist" or just another Koo-Aid swilling adversary too stupid to see the truth.

So the difference between this thread and other Mets-related threads is that (1) i've tried to provide reasons for my positions, (2) i attack no one in this thread for disagreeing with me, (3) i haven't rejected my team because i don't like the way they're currently behaving, and (4) this is the only knicks thread on the forum. If there were others about other aspects of the knicks, i wouldn't use each and every one of them as an excuse to thrash Dolan.

Bret Sabermetric
May 16 2006 02:08 PM

We really should discuss in the Knicks-Mets thread I've created over there, so as not to hijack this exemplary thread too much.

But before heading over there, I'd like to refute some of your points for the benefit of those who won't following be us there (it's a difficult journey, one filled with much high-spirited namecalling and other hijinx.)

i was responding to your post, but I think it is safe to assert that I have been called disgraceful by many posters in this thread at one time or another, even if you didn;'t do so personally,

Often, I am NOT raising broadbased agenda issues explicitly, but someone (again GYC is only the most recent example) raises accusations of the agenda behind all my posts, and we degenerate into my defending my baseball-related post in the broader context of my rotten character, nearly always against my will. You folks can't be raising an issue and then criticising me for responding to it, If you don't want to read about my bad character so much, then it's your responsiboility to limit your discussions of it to the RLF. Once you raise issues not addressed in my posts, I'm free to respond to them, which is usually then perceived as my addressing those issues. Be consistent. Be fair. Be a mensch. it's true I'm a horrible person: when attacked I dare to defend myself. But if you're not interested in raising the issue, then don't raise it.

Now: 1) I provide lots of reasons for my thinking. Some would say too many reasons. You don't have to like my reasons or agree with them, but you can't really claim that I'm just spewing generalized abuse at the Mets

2) Does any one here try to defend the Knicks anymore? It's pretty easy to avoid attacking people who agree with you.

3) You think your behavior and tone here is supportive of the Knicks? I think very few readers would agree. You're positively hateful of the entire franchise. NTTAWWT.

4) Don't you think you're overstating my using "each and every" thread to attack the Mets? As I';ve said, often my specific and fairly innocuous posts gets the reponse "Hey, Sal, when you say it's overcast at Shea today, aren't you really attacking Wilpon for not spending money to make the clouds go away? Why do you hate the Mets so much? Is it because you suck? I think so." In responding to such nonsense, the subject of my lousy character gets repeated, often to the point where a casual reader might believe that I'm raising the broader questions that I'm trying unsuccessfully to avoid. You, for example, in the 'dropping a card" thread this morning have raised the issue of my broad Met-hating agenda in the much narrower context of the Mets' failure to evaluate talent very well. If you raise it to dismiss my argument, can't I defend it? Seemingly not.


You're not particularly stupid, in ,my view, although you do have a selective blind spot for the stupidity of some of your fellow posters. But that really is a whole other RLF topic, isn't it? So let's adjourn.

Frayed Knot
May 24 2006 12:20 AM

Knicks win 2nd overall pick in the draft!!!!

Huh, what's that you say? ... Really?
OK, nevermind.