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Twenty years ago today

Edgy DC
Jun 21 2005 04:48 PM

In this game, the Mets got five shutout innings from Rick Aguilera, only thave a Tom Gorman turn a 2-0 lead into a 3-2 deficit against the Montreal Expos. I'm not sure what Jesse Orosco's story was, but Roger McDowell had thrown three innings the previous day, leaving the Mets to make do with the back end of their bullpen. The unlikely hero turned out to be Doug Sisk, who in the midst of a miserable season for him turned in three shutout innings, as the Mets won, 6-3.

The win allowed the surging Mets to keep pace with their division co-leaders, the St. Louis Cardinals. This lofty status was achieved in part through the intercession of the free-falling Cubs, who had been on top the previous year by virtue of an all-veteran-hired-gun starting rotation and would continue their plummet by virtue of a five-injured-guys starting rotation. The Mets contribution to this Cub slide included a four game sweep June 17-20. It was a clean sweep however, as the Cubs were still able to confront the Mets with the not-yet-injured defending Cy Young-winner Rick Sutcliffe, as well as Steve Trout and Scott Sanderson. Only Ray Fontenot stood out as a Cub pretender.

The fun was only beginning, as later in the summer, the Cubs would be coming with the likes of Derek Botelho, Reggie Patterson, and Johnny Abrego.

This is a pretty good snapshot in a really great two-team race. One that incidentally might well have not mattered these days because the wild-card playoff slot would have been granted to the runner up.

metirish
Jun 21 2005 11:35 PM

I wish I were a Mets fan back then,I understand there was no love lost between the Mets and Cardinals back then,was the anomosity as bad between the teams as some say it was?

Edgy DC
Jun 21 2005 11:50 PM

No, it was a healthy rivalry. Intense and fierce, but honorable.

I don't know. I sure felt that way. Davey Johnson and Whitey Herzog fished together in the off-season and had some business deals together.

metirish
Jun 21 2005 11:55 PM

Well then that's even better, what sucks of course is that these teams only play to series a season, of course that is why some hate interleague play.

Bret Sabermetric
Jun 22 2005 08:09 AM

It was hotter than "honorable" implies. They routinely referred to us as "pond scum."

That, Senator, was uncalled-for.

More substantially, they resented not only our ballclub (more than honor allows between two competitors) but what they termed our feelings of entitlement and self-aggrandizment: they seemed to bristle at the thought that a team full of young stars would get assessed as the best team in the division, while the Cardinals would look over the last few years' results and claim that they had the better record. When Mets' supporters would offer "Yeah, well, I'm talking about NOW, and NOW is when the Mets appear to have some edges on you all" and they would get all "But count up the wins from 1980 up til now and who's better, you self-glorifying lying pond scum..." and we would go, "Hold on here, pal, I'm just talkng about both teams as they are presently constituted" and on and on.

It was a nasty relationship

soupcan
Jun 22 2005 10:19 AM

It was fun though.

I hated John Tudor like cancer.

Was it '86 when the Mets went down there and swept an early season 4 game series? That was just so sweet.

Johnny Dickshot
Jun 22 2005 12:37 PM

What sorta gets me to this day are Cardinal fans so caught up in calling themselves the greatest fans in baseball that they barely recognize how hypocritical they are.

They attempt to cover up the awfulness of the Hernandez trade by painting the Mets as a team anxious to take on a drug-user all while looking the other way when remaining Cardinal guys, like Juaquin Andujar, were caught up in the same scandal as Keith, attended the same trial, received the same punishment, etc., or when McGwire juiced up with andro and who nows what else.

They called the Mets, and by extension, New York City "scum," while I don't recall Met fans ever having anything all that disparaging to say about flyover country. The noive!

MFS62
Jun 22 2005 12:42 PM

They're probably still pissed that the Brooklyn Bums took away the title of "most beloved team" from their Gashouse Gang. Out there in the heartland, there isn't that much to do other than remember stuff like that.

Later

metirish
Jun 22 2005 01:13 PM

Try telling Tino Martinez that St. Louis fans are the greatest fans in baseball , they were so vicious towards him in recent IL play that LaRussa apologized for them..

soupcan
Jun 22 2005 02:03 PM

Fuck Tino Martinez.

Boy am I in a mood today or what?

Willets Point
Jun 22 2005 02:08 PM

Johnny Dickshot wrote:
flyover country.


I hate that term. There's a lot of good America out there.

ScarletKnight41
Jun 22 2005 02:20 PM

]Boy am I in a mood today or what?


I've been in that mood most of the past week. Sorry to have passed it along Captain.

soupcan
Jun 22 2005 02:24 PM

Well thanks a lot.

And I believe that my captaincy was revoked by Edgy a week or so ago when I admitted to leaving a game at Shea before it had ended.

Johnny Dickshot
Jun 22 2005 02:27 PM

]I hate that term. There's a lot of good America out there.


Yeah, I was trying to be funny. The MFYs put me in a lousy mood last night.

Who is the new captain? I didn't see opne named.

Edgy DC
Jun 22 2005 02:47 PM

Widey's inquiry -- excuse me, Dicky's inqury -- has started an eintirely imaginary popular groundswell demanding a new captain to replace the disgraced can o' soup.

What I know about captains is that they have certain ambiguous high qualities that we're all more or less aware of, but they have no absolute requirements and fewer specific duties. Some would say they don't even have unspecific duties.

But they have qualities, which we sort of know, though we may not agree what they are, and we're expected to follow them into battle. Intangibles, man, intangibles.

It's also sort of a nebulous statement to the outside world. The character of the franchise should be understood to somehow be ambiguously an extension of the character of our captain.

This has Cooby ambiguously written all over it, no?

cooby
Jun 22 2005 02:49 PM

If only I knew what what you said meant

soupcan
Jun 22 2005 02:52 PM

I just hope there are no skeltons in her closet. If you recall, my secrets came very close to derailing my campaign.

That being said - cooby for cappy!

Edgy DC
Jun 22 2005 02:59 PM

I've done some digging. A lot of ambiguous ugliness regarding state quarters, but we can spin that our way to the outside world.

sharpie
Jun 22 2005 03:05 PM

Why do I think we're being railroaded here? The tainted Soupcan, Captain during the period of the EZBoard crash, rushes to endorse the administration's proposed candidate. Is there some kind of deal whereby the future Captain won't look into the former Captain's culpability for this event? Committees should be formed, motions should be brought forward, forms should be filed.

Edgy DC
Jun 22 2005 03:11 PM

KC's sort of the alpha-admin now. I think it should be his call.

ScarletKnight41
Jun 22 2005 03:17 PM

Soupy will always be The Captain to me.

Then again, I'm really crappy with dealing with change....

soupcan
Jun 22 2005 03:23 PM

That's very sweet.

I feel like Bill Clinton standing on 125th street right now.

Willets Point
Jun 22 2005 03:27 PM

KC, Alpha-Admin:

Don't mess with him.

cooby
Jun 22 2005 03:28 PM

I thought soupcan was doing fine!

Johnny Dickshot
Jun 22 2005 03:29 PM

He left a Met game early. Even he knows that's grounds for impeachment.

Edgy DC
Jun 22 2005 03:30 PM
Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jun 22 2005 03:45 PM

Twenty years ago today, the Mets bullpen and defense came up short, with Davey Johnson getting burned by double switching in Clint Hurdle and getting rewarded with two Hurdle errata.

The Mets fell from first to third. Maybe you forgot that Montreal hung around the race that season?

Retrosheet Boxscore: Montreal Expos 5, New York Mets 4

Montreal Expos 5, New York Mets 4

Game Played on Saturday, June 22, 1985 (N) at Shea Stadium<

MON N    0  1  0    0  1  0    0  1  1    1  -   5 10  1
NY N 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 - 4 8 3

BATTING
Montreal Expos        AB   R   H RBI      BB  SO      PO   A
Raines lf 6 0 1 0 0 1 1 0
Law 2b 4 1 0 0 1 0 2 5
Dawson rf,cf 5 0 0 0 0 3 0 0
Driessen 1b 4 2 2 0 1 1 13 2
Brooks ss 5 0 2 0 0 1 1 3
Wallach 3b 4 1 2 0 1 0 2 5
Dilone cf 2 0 0 1 1 0 1 0
Barnes ph 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
Webster cf 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Francona ph,rf 1 0 0 1 0 0 1 0
Nicosia c 4 0 2 1 1 0 7 1
Palmer p 3 1 0 0 0 1 2 0
Reardon p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Burke p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Wohlford ph 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0
St. Claire p 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0
Totals 39 5 10 3 7 7 30 16

FIELDING - 
DP: 1.
E: Law (5).

BATTING - 
2B: Wallach 2 (21,off Darling,off Orosco); Nicosia (1,off Orosco); Driessen
(12,off McDowell).
IBB: Wohlford (3,by Orosco); Wallach (2,by McDowell).
Team LOB: 11.

BASERUNNING - 
SB: Dilone (7,2nd base off Darling/Carter); Nicosia (1,2nd base off McDowell/Carter).

New York Mets         AB   R   H RBI      BB  SO      PO   A
Backman 2b 4 1 1 0 1 1 3 3
Dykstra cf 3 0 1 0 0 2 1 0
Staub ph 1 1 1 3 0 0 0 0
Wilson cf 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
McDowell p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Knight ph 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Hernandez 1b 3 1 1 0 2 1 9 2
Carter c 4 0 1 0 1 0 9 0
Heep rf,lf 5 0 1 1 0 1 2 0
Foster lf 1 0 0 0 2 0 0 0
Orosco p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Christensen cf 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Johnson 3b 5 0 0 0 0 3 1 5
Santana ss 5 1 2 0 0 0 3 2
Darling p 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 2
Hurdle ph,rf 1 0 0 0 2 0 2 0
Chapman pr 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Totals 37 4 8 4 8 8 30 14

FIELDING - 
DP: 1.
E: Backman 2 (3), Hurdle (1).

BATTING - 
HR: Staub (1,7th inning off Reardon 2 on, 2 out).
SH: Backman (3,off Burke).
HBP: Foster (1,by Burke).
IBB: Hernandez (10,by Burke).
Team LOB: 13.

PITCHING
Montreal Expos        IP     H   R  ER  BB  SO  HR
Palmer 6.2 3 1 1 4 6 0
Reardon 0 2 3 3 1 0 1
Burke 1.1 3 0 0 2 1 0
St. Claire W(2-1) 2 0 0 0 1 1 0
Totals 10 8 4 4 8 8 1

New York Mets         IP     H   R  ER  BB  SO  HR
Darling 7 5 2 1 3 4 0
Orosco 1.1 4 2 1 2 2 0
McDowell L(5-2) 1.2 1 1 1 2 1 0
Totals 10 10 5 3 7 7 0

WP: Darling (2).
HBP: Burke (2,Foster).
IBB: Burke (4,Hernandez); Orosco (4,Wohlford); McDowell (5,Wallach).

Time of Game: 3:56   Attendance: 51513


Starting Lineups:

Montreal Expos New York Mets
1. Raines lf Backman 2b
2. Law 2b Dykstra cf
3. Dawson rf Hernandez 1b
4. Driessen 1b Carter c
5. Brooks ss Heep rf
6. Wallach 3b Foster lf
7. Dilone cf Johnson 3b
8. Nicosia c Santana ss
9. Palmer p Darling p

EXPOS 1ST: Raines struck out; Law grounded out (second to
first); Dawson made an out to center; 0 R, 0 H, 0 E, 0 LOB.
Expos 0, Mets 0.

METS 1ST: Backman struck out; Dykstra struck out (catcher to
first); Hernandez grounded out (shortstop to first); 0 R, 0 H, 0
E, 0 LOB. Expos 0, Mets 0.

EXPOS 2ND: Driessen walked; Brooks singled [Driessen to second];
Wallach forced Brooks (pitcher to second) [Driessen to third];
Dilone forced Wallach (first to shortstop) [Driessen scored];
Dilone stole second; Nicosia walked; Palmer struck out; 1 R, 1
H, 0 E, 2 LOB. Expos 1, Mets 0.

METS 2ND: Carter grounded out (second to first); Heep grounded
out (first to pitcher); Foster walked; Johnson made an out to
center; 0 R, 0 H, 0 E, 1 LOB. Expos 1, Mets 0.

EXPOS 3RD: Raines made an out to right; Law grounded out (third
to first); Dawson struck out; 0 R, 0 H, 0 E, 0 LOB. Expos 1,
Mets 0.

METS 3RD: Santana grounded out (second to first); Darling
grounded out (third to first); Backman walked; Dykstra singled
[Backman to second]; Hernandez struck out; 0 R, 1 H, 0 E, 2 LOB.
Expos 1, Mets 0.

EXPOS 4TH: Driessen made an out to third; Brooks made an out to
right; Wallach doubled; Darling threw a wild pitch [Wallach to
third]; Dilone grounded out (first unassisted); 0 R, 1 H, 0 E, 1
LOB. Expos 1, Mets 0.

METS 4TH: Carter walked; Heep reached on an error by Law [Carter
to second, Heep to first]; Foster walked [Carter to third, Heep
to second]; Johnson struck out; Santana grounded into a double
play (shortstop to second to first) [Foster out at second]; 0 R,
0 H, 1 E, 2 LOB. Expos 1, Mets 0.

EXPOS 5TH: Nicosia singled; Palmer forced Nicosia (first to
shortstop); Raines singled [Palmer to second]; Law forced Raines
(third to second) [Palmer scored (unearned) (error by Backman)];
Dawson grounded out (third to first); 1 R, 2 H, 1 E, 1 LOB.
Expos 2, Mets 0.

METS 5TH: Darling grounded out (shortstop to first); Backman
grounded out (first unassisted); Dykstra struck out; 0 R, 0 H, 0
E, 0 LOB. Expos 2, Mets 0.

EXPOS 6TH: Driessen struck out; Brooks singled; Brooks was
picked off first (pitcher to first); Wallach popped to catcher
in foul territory; 0 R, 1 H, 0 E, 0 LOB. Expos 2, Mets 0.

METS 6TH: Hernandez singled; Carter popped to third in foul
territory; Heep struck out; Foster grounded out (third to
first); 0 R, 1 H, 0 E, 1 LOB. Expos 2, Mets 0.

EXPOS 7TH: Dilone walked; Nicosia grounded into a double play
(second to shortstop to first) [Dilone out at second]; Palmer
grounded out (shortstop to first); 0 R, 0 H, 0 E, 0 LOB. Expos
2, Mets 0.

METS 7TH: Johnson grounded out (first to pitcher); Santana
singled; HURDLE BATTED FOR DARLING; Hurdle grounded out (second
to first) [Santana to second]; REARDON REPLACED PALMER
(PITCHING); Backman singled [Santana to third]; STAUB BATTED FOR
DYKSTRA; Staub homered [Santana scored, Backman scored];
Hernandez walked; BURKE REPLACED REARDON (PITCHING); Carter
singled [Hernandez to second]; Heep singled [Hernandez scored,
Carter to third]; Foster was hit by a pitch [Heep to second];
Johnson struck out; 4 R, 5 H, 0 E, 3 LOB. Expos 2, Mets 4.

EXPOS 8TH: WILSON REPLACED STAUB (PLAYING CF); HEEP CHANGED
POSITIONS (PLAYING LF); OROSCO REPLACED FOSTER (PITCHING);
HURDLE STAYED IN GAME (PLAYING RF); Raines made an out to right;
Law walked; Dawson struck out; Driessen singled [Law scored
(unearned) (error by Hurdle), Driessen to second]; Brooks struck
out; 1 R, 1 H, 1 E, 1 LOB. Expos 3, Mets 4.

METS 8TH: Santana singled; Hurdle walked [Santana to second];
Backman out on a sacrifice bunt (third to second) [Santana to
third, Hurdle to second]; Wilson popped to third in foul
territory; Hernandez was walked intentionally; Carter grounded
out (third to first); 0 R, 1 H, 0 E, 3 LOB. Expos 3, Mets 4.

EXPOS 9TH: Wallach doubled; BARNES BATTED FOR DILONE; Barnes
singled [Wallach to third]; Nicosia doubled [Wallach scored,
Barnes to third]; WOHLFORD BATTED FOR BURKE; Wohlford was walked
intentionally; Raines made an out to right; MCDOWELL REPLACED
WILSON (PITCHING); CHRISTENSEN REPLACED OROSCO (PLAYING CF); Law
forced Barnes (third to catcher) [Nicosia to third, Wohlford to
second]; Dawson struck out; 1 R, 3 H, 0 E, 3 LOB. Expos 4, Mets
4.

METS 9TH: WEBSTER REPLACED BARNES (PLAYING CF); ST. CLAIRE
REPLACED WOHLFORD (PITCHING); Heep made an out to left;
Christensen grounded out (third to first); Johnson struck out; 0
R, 0 H, 0 E, 0 LOB. Expos 4, Mets 4.

EXPOS 10TH: Driessen doubled; Brooks grounded out (first
unassisted) [Driessen to third]; Wallach was walked
intentionally; FRANCONA BATTED FOR WEBSTER; Francona reached on
an error by Backman [Driessen scored, Wallach to second,
Francona to first]; Nicosia forced Francona (third to second)
[Wallach to third]; Nicosia stole second; St. Claire walked;
Raines grounded out (second to first); 1 R, 1 H, 1 E, 3 LOB.
Expos 5, Mets 4.

METS 10TH: DAWSON CHANGED POSITIONS (PLAYING CF); FRANCONA
STAYED IN GAME (PLAYING RF); Santana grounded out (second to
first); Hurdle walked; CHAPMAN RAN FOR HURDLE; Backman made an
out to right; KNIGHT BATTED FOR MCDOWELL; Knight lined to
shortstop; 0 R, 0 H, 0 E, 1 LOB. Expos 5, Mets 4.

Final Totals R H E LOB
Expos 5 10 1 11
Mets 4 8 3 13
Read Me

</BODY></HTML>


At conclusion of games of June 22, 1985


Eastern Division
WLPct.GBStreakLast 10
St. Louis Cardinals3827.585--W-38-2
Montreal Expos3929.5740.5W-16-4
NEW YORK METS3728.5691.0L-15-5
Chicago Cubs3530.5383.0L-110-10
Philadelphia Phillies2738.41511.0W-26-4
Pittsburgh Pirates2242.34415.5L-24-6
Western Division
WLPct.GBStreakLast 10
San Diego Padres4028.588--W-36-4
Los Angeles Dodgers3430.5314.0W-37-3
Cincinnati Reds3431.5234.5W-15-5
Houston Astros3432.5155.0L-24-6
Atlanta Braves2838.42411.0L-14-6
San Francisco Giants2641.38813.5L-35-5

Games of June 22, 1985
Montreal Expos 5, NEW YORK METS 4
CINCINNATI REDS 4, Atlanta Braves 3
LOS ANGELES DODGERS 6, Houston Astros 3
PHILADELPHIA PHILLIES 5, Pittsburgh Pirates 2
ST. LOUIS CARDINALS 2, Chicago Cubs 1
SAN DIEGO PADRES 2, San Francisco Giants 1

(Code lovingingly borrowed from UMDB and retrosheet.org.)

sharpie
Jun 22 2005 03:33 PM

The 'Spos were crowing about Hubie Brooks that year, saying that they fleeced the Mets and that they would'nt trade Hubie for Gary Carter 1-for-1.

Willets Point
Jun 22 2005 03:35 PM

Montreal once had a baseball team. Wow!

Edgy DC
Jun 22 2005 03:46 PM

I edited in the boxscore and scoring summary.

One of baseball's sweetest pleasures there -- a three-run pinch-hit homer from Rusty Staub.

Frayed Knot
Jun 22 2005 04:01 PM

Neither Orosco nor McDowell could ever pitch "in big spots".
If this game didn't prove to Met fans that you could never win a championship with those two anchoring your bullpen I don't know what could!!!

sharpie
Jun 22 2005 04:12 PM

That there was Rusty's final big league homer. Happy anniversary, Rusty.

KC
Jun 22 2005 08:52 PM

I don't plan on alpha-admin'n much longer. I'd like to get the top banner issue
settled, I'll take care of tech issues since the board is on my server, and I'll
keep a pretty regular (if not anal) backup schedule.

Edge is the camp counselor here and always has been. If it seems to people
that I've taken over, I did so more because I felt 'the move' was the smart thing
to do and I wanted to make the transition easy for him because he had a lot
of blood and sweat poured into the old place and letting go was a hard decision
enough to have to make while getting a new one going at the same time.

Yancy was also instrumental in finding our way around under the hood first
couple of days and his rankings/posting totals fix was awesome.

Now let's see if the upper banner stuff survives the night.

Edgy DC
Jun 22 2005 10:49 PM

I think it's simply a case of the board not reading HTML (or not reading it right) unless you're logged in.