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Dirty or No?

Edgy DC
Jun 20 2005 02:53 PM

Ty Wigginton throwing a little extra elbow into an otherwise clean hard collision with Yadier Molina?

By the way, this collision took place last August, so you didn't miss anything recent.

Jun 20 2005 03:00 PM

Not dirty at all, I wish we would seed more of it,that's two tough players in Wiggi and Molina, I remember Ty doing that to a few catchers, did he ram Posada one time?

Jun 20 2005 03:01 PM

It's hard to judge based on a still picture. Is there video available?

And when did Wiggy come back to the bigs? I thought the Pirates had made him walk the plank down to AAA.

Edgy DC
Jun 20 2005 03:31 PM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 20 2005 04:05 PM

I don't know that the elbow is allowed. If so, why not the slapper?

Nor am I sure that's an intentionally thrown elbow.

Jun 20 2005 03:39 PM

A still photo can be misleading. We don't know at what angle or speed he approached the plate. He could have been throwing the elbow, or he just could have been trying to balance himself - it's hard to tell based on the still picture.

Jun 20 2005 03:50 PM

I bet my last dollar that Wiggi was trying to run right through Molina and that he was charging bull-like from 3rd, as we know Wiggi was old school & hard nosed

Jun 20 2005 03:53 PM

Yes, but there's a distinction between hard nosed and dirty.

I don't think we have enough here to decide whether that line had been crossed.

Jun 20 2005 03:58 PM

True SK, I don't think he was being dirty but from watching Ty when he was a Met you just know he wouldn't hold back either, we need video footage.

Jun 20 2005 04:01 PM


Edgy DC
Jun 20 2005 04:21 PM

The shot is from last August. Wiggi is running through walls for the Indianapolis Indians these days. (How many teams carry affilliations with minor league clubs bearing the same nickname as one of their big league rivals?)

Wigs may be getting his stroke back, going .286 / .333 / .571 // .904 in a dozen games with the Indians.

By the way, Wiggy's teammate on Indianapolis is a journeyman lefty firstbaseman named Graham Koonce, a 30-year-old who entered 2005 with 1,195 professional games, but only six at the big-league level. Anybody know if this guy is kin to the late Cal Koonce?

Johnny Dickshot
Jun 20 2005 04:23 PM

The correct answer is: Not dirty.

Slappy McSlapper's slap would have been fine in the act of going through Arroyo, but not past him. A guy blocking home plate is a whole different can of dog food, I think.

Jun 20 2005 04:33 PM

a google search yields this article from the Bellville News-Deomcrat.

]Posted on Wed, Sep. 01, 2004

Kline has torn groin, may miss rest of season

Molina recovers from collision


ST. LOUIS - Steve Kline has a torn groin muscle and could miss the rest of the regular season, the St. Louis reliever said Tuesday night.

Kline, who hurt himself covering first base Friday in Pittsburgh, said a magnetic resonance imaging exam showed the torn muscle.

"I didn't think it was this bad, and I thought I'd come off the DL (disabled list) in 15 days," said Kline, 2-2 with a 1.86 ERA in 63 games. "I want to get back a week to 10 days before the season ends, before the playoffs.

"That's the important thing."

Kline and fellow left-hander Ray King have pitched in a total of 121 games this year, but Kline's injury could leave the Cards short in the bullpen for their playoff run.

One likely candidate to take Kline's spot would be Rick Ankiel, who is expected to be activated today following a season spent in the minors returning from elbow ligament transplant surgery.

Still pushing

The Cardinals reached the end of August 43 games over .500, leading the National League Central standings by 15 1/2 games.

But they're taking nothing for granted as the calendar page turns to September.

"I don't see any reason any of us should change anything we're doing," manager Tony La Russa said. "If it turns out we keep playing this well, what you do now sets you up for later anyway, so why change?

"You won't see any difference."

Especially this week, when the Cardinals are playing possible playoff opponents San Diego and Los Angeles.

"Because of who you're playing, you've got to get ready to play," La Russa said of the Padres and Dodgers, battling San Francisco for the NL West title and the wild card berth. "They're really good clubs, playing with a lot at stake.

"It should be everything you want: Tough, interesting, competitive."

He said the Cardinals, who have won nine of their last 10 series and 15 of 17 since the start of July, would be prepared to play no matter the opposition. But the Padres and Dodgers put a little extra spice into the six-game homestand -- and the Cards' half-dozen games in Southern California next week.

"I haven't seen our club be any different in any series, no matter who we're playing, for a long time," La Russa said. "So I think whoever we were playing, we'd be ready to play. That said, you don't have to dig (deep) to get ready to play over the next two weeks, because of the quality of the opposition."

Molina OK

Catcher Yadier Molina was lugging a bag of ice on his right ankle throughout the clubhouse on Tuesday, a remnant of his spectacular home-plate collision with Pittsburgh's Ty Wigginton Saturday.

"I'm OK, I'm fine," Molina said. "Pretty good."

Molina, who held onto the ball for the out even thought he was steamrolled by Wigginton as the throw arrived from right fielder Larry Walker, got the night off Tuesday with Mike Matheny in the lineup.

But Molina, who was rested Sunday before the off-day Monday, was available Tuesday if needed.

"I'm sure he'd play," La Russa said. "His comment was, 'You can't expect me to steal a base, that's all.'"

Tavarez waiting

There's no news on the hearing for Julian Tavarez' appeal of his 10-day suspension for his grimy cap, but the reliever Tuesday was sporting a present from his teammates.

"Look, they gave me one with pine tar on it," Tavarez said, reaching into his cubicle to pull out a cap with a nearly black brim. "Mine doesn't look like that."

Tavarez is pitching while the commissioner's office decides when to hold a hearing on his appeal. He got the 10-day suspension on Aug. 24, after being ejected from the first game of a doubleheader Aug. 20 against Pittsburgh.

Edgy DC
Jun 20 2005 04:54 PM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 20 2005 04:57 PM

From the MLB Umpire Manual, a casebook that guides their decisions:

Section 6.1 (Offensive Interference):
While contact may occur between a fielder and runner during a tag attempt, a runner is not allowed to use his hands or arms to commit an obviously malicious or unsportsmanlike act such as grabbing, tackling, intentionally slapping at the baseball, punching, kicking, flagrantly using his arms or forearms, etc. to commit an intentional act of interference unrelated to running the bases.

This is the rule that A-Rod got called out on.

So of course Wiggy's got the right and responsibility to lower his Wiggum head and shoulder and run through Molina to get to the plate as best he can. But if a guy uses his forearms more than to break his fall, but is grinding that elbow into his target's chest or windpipe, or swiging it across the guy's jaw or hands, he seems to be crossing the line.

Willets Point
Jun 20 2005 04:55 PM

Hey, it's a good play unless you get called on it (paraphrasing).

Jun 20 2005 04:58 PM

] But if a guy uses his forearms more than to break his fall, but is grinding that elbow into his target's chest or windpipe, or swiging it across the guy's jaw or hands, he seems to be crossing the line.

Agreed. Absolutely.

I still maintain that we can't decide whether that was the case based solely on the still picture provided.

Edgy DC
Jun 20 2005 05:12 PM

Well, it was eight months ago, and there doesn't appear to have been any carryover, according to the article posted. The picture's just a point of speculation.

Bret Sabermetric
Jun 20 2005 05:52 PM

If you like Wiggy, it's a hard-nosed clean play.

If you like Yadier, it's unsportsmanlike and filthy.

Why is this so hard?

Jun 20 2005 10:22 PM

Edgy DC wrote:
The shot is from last August. Wiggi is running through walls for the Indianapolis Indians these days.

i used to hear wigginton on the radio post game interviews, always talking about how he would run through walls for the mets. and i was impressed and after he was traded, my friends and i joked that we hope they have lots of walls available in pittsburgh because wiggy had plans to bust em up.

earlier this year i read an interview with mientkiewicz where he said he would run through walls for pedro, so i added him to the all-wall-smashing team.