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Franco still alive, Manny to the Mets

Spacemans Bong
Oct 07 2005 04:05 PM

Since we've all been hearing for a year now about how the Mets soooo badly want Manny Ramirez, can I ask a question to Cranepool Nation?

Um, have you heard anything not from Boston about Carlos Beltran not wanting to be in New York and being traded for Manny?

Because I haven't, but many SOSHers seem to think this is a foregone conclusion.

Edgy DC
Oct 07 2005 04:06 PM

]Since we've all been hearing for a year now about how the Mets soooo badly want Manny Ramirez, can I ask a question to Cranepool Nation?


Not really at all.

metsmarathon
Oct 07 2005 07:02 PM

i'm fairly torn about the whole idea of carlos/manny....

while i like it, and the thought of manny and floyd in the same lineup gives me giggles, the voice in the back of my head tells me there's a downside that's big enough to not consider this a no brainer.

Yancy Street Gang
Oct 07 2005 07:40 PM

I'd rather keep the younger guy and hope he bounces back.

KC
Oct 07 2005 07:59 PM

I'm not the big SoSH fan that many here are, but I thought it was a bastion of
witty baseball talk, so stellar that players post there, so unique and treasured
that they could raise $50,000 for the best server ever? Seems every time that
I hear a quote from there it's like the old rumor-mill all over again or more whin-
ing and complaining than anything.

Really, is anyone considering trading players of that magnitude while the play-
offs are going on still? I'd go look over there, but I imagine it's more busy and bitter
than I care to partake in this evening.

Zvon
Oct 07 2005 09:19 PM
Re: Franco still alive, Manny to the Mets

Spacemans Bong wrote:
Since we've all been hearing for a year now about how the Mets soooo badly want Manny Ramirez, can I ask a question to Cranepool Nation?

Um, have you heard anything not from Boston about Carlos Beltran not wanting to be in New York and being traded for Manny?

Because I haven't, but many SOSHers seem to think this is a foregone conclusion.


Manny on the Mets is not a rediculous possibility.
However, Beltran for Manny is.

If theres any reality involved with the talk, and I doubt it, Mets should stick with Beltran.

Rotblatt
Oct 07 2005 10:20 PM

I haven't heard anything aside from that one Gammon's piece.

Honestly, I don't hate the Manny/Beltran idea, provided that Cameron's healthy. I liked the Beltran signing, but it was a bit superfluous, IMO, since we already had an above average CF.

Signing Guerrero the year before or Delgado this last off-season would've made more sense.

Anyway, I hardly think Beltran should be untouchable, although I DO think he'll rebound this year.

All that being said, Manny's not the best guy for us to go after this year, since LF is covered and neither Floyd nor Manny are good bets to handle RF well. If we're going to get creative, I'd rather see it be for a bat who plays first--like Dunn.

MFS62
Oct 07 2005 10:34 PM

What does "Franco Still Alive" have anything to do with the thread so far?
Its been all Manny, all the time.
Or were the words just put in the title to pique our interest enough to make us want to open up the thread?

Later

smg58
Oct 08 2005 12:55 AM

A year ago, Pedro and Beltran were just using the Mets for bargaining leverage. The year before that, Vlad didn't want to go to a big market, and he certainly didn't want to switch leagues. I don't know Beltran personally, and even if I did I wouldn't venture a guess on how he'd feel about being dealt.

As for Manny... the choices appear to be a) a deal involving Beltran, b) Cameron or Floyd plus Milledge, with a lot of haggling over cash, or c) looking elsewhere.

I'm solidly against option b; the Mets have major league talent they can deal without creating holes in the roster (especially at starting pitcher), and dealing Milledge or Petit when suitable players can be obtained otherwise is a bad, bad strategy.

I also think we can ask for more than just Manny if Beltran is on the table and the Sox want Manny out that badly. If we threw in Matsui, we basically break even financially, and if they're absolutely committed to moving Manny I think we'd still be in a position to demand another good player. I see no point in making this easy for them, and if they say no I could live with it.

But if they say yes, would that still be better than option c? That depends on whatever deals are out there, which we won't know for at least two months.

Rockin' Doc
Oct 08 2005 08:07 AM

Manny is a great hitter that would look great in the cleanup spot of any team's line up, but if the price of obtaining him is Beltran (or Floyd and a top prospect Milledge, Humber, or Pettit) then I think the Mets should look elsewhere.

Rotblatt
Oct 08 2005 08:45 AM

I agree. There's no way we should have to give up one of our top prospects for Manny--unless, of course, we're also getting one back.

If Theo's demanding Milledge or Petit, we should walk away. After all, we're in a much better position than the Sox. They have potential holes in CF, 1B, 3B & 2B, an underperforming SS signed to a long-term deal, a crappy bullpen with a big question mark at closer and an aging, inconsistent rotation without a clear ace.

In comparison, we have holes at 2B & 1B and at closer. That's it. AND we have room to add salary, which, if they resign Damon, the Sox probably won't.

By sending them Floyd and, say, one or two of Trachsel, Robo or Zambrano in exchange for Manny (and his ENTIRE contract), they can strengthen their bullpen and get the financial flexibility to bring back Damon, sign Burnett & a closer.

They won't be able to do all three without some payroll help, and I daresay we're the only team who can help them.

Mex17
Oct 08 2005 09:56 AM

I would not trade Beltran or even Floyd to get Manny. We need to add an ADDITIONAL power bat, not replace one with another (even if that other one is better than the one we are trading). We also have to keep in mind that Beltran and Floyd swing lefthanded and that is additionally valuble.

I would trade Milledge and/or Petit (hopefully not both) for Manny. If we are not going to go for it with Pedro on the team we might as well trade Pedro for prospects that will be ready at around the same time that Petit/Milledge will be ready.

seawolf17
Oct 08 2005 10:31 AM

You know what? I wouldn't deal Beltran, but I'd get rid of Floyd. If you all think he's going to play 150 games and hit 33 home runs in '06, I think y'all got another think coming. He's been injured his whole career; no way he does this two years in a row. I love what Cliff did for this team this year, but if someone else wants him, I'd deal him in a second.

Edgy DC
Oct 08 2005 10:56 AM

Get rid of him?

For what compensation?

sharpie
Oct 08 2005 10:58 AM

Sox won't deal Manny without getting a bigtime power bat back. Dream on if you thing Petit and Milledge will get it done. Prolly would cost us Beltran and damn if I'd do that.

metsmarathon
Oct 08 2005 11:13 AM

"y'all got another think coming"

totally the wrong word for the phrase, but it still works in context. i like it.

um, grammatics aside, i'd keep floyd. why, you ask, if he's just going to get hisself injured? because diaz makes an excellent 4th outfielder, and i'm not too sure that a floyd injury would necessarily unmake our team, and its not like he's all that expensive...

Mex17
Oct 08 2005 11:21 AM

It's hard for me to believe that all those deadline rumours were all completely made up, and those did not have Beltran or Floyd going to Boston.

Clearing the money off of Boston's payroll, it would appear, has a value of it's own in Epstien's mind. If he wants, he can get two major league outfielders (Cameron and Diaz, though I don't see why they need Cameron if Damon re-signs), another starter (Seo or Zambrano), and at least one or maybe two top prospects (Petit and/or Milledge) while having lots of $$$ to play with to shore up his bullpen.

If that deal is still attractive to him (if it ever was) is anybody's guess at this point. But that is the deal that I would be comfortable with from a Mets perspective (though I would attempt to keep one out of Petit or Milledge if I could).

seawolf17
Oct 08 2005 12:12 PM

I'm saying if someone needs a bat with an expiring contract and makes a good offer, I'd rather have the younger first baseman or a catching prospect or a good left-handed pitcher or whatever. That's all. I have no long-standing sentimental attachment to Cliff, dynamite season or not.

Johnny Dickshot
Oct 08 2005 12:22 PM

]I see no point in making this easy for them, and if they say no I could live with it.


Yeah, I agree, tho maybe not in extracting xtra parts with him but rather getting him on the cheap. As we all know he was free at one point (of course, that meant sliding gayrod in his place).

heep
Oct 08 2005 02:54 PM

Beltran is NOT going anywhere. That is a weak rumor. Isn't a no-trade clause binding in a player's contract?

I would love Manny (140 RBI's is a blessing to any lineup) but his presence and attitude is questionable. If Omar and Randolph are in hot pursuit, they apparently feel its not too much of an issue and they can handle him. I wonder how.

At any rate, if Damon does not resign, Cameron would be a good fit, and Floyd as well + 1 of our starters (Seo or Trachs). I'm not inclined to give up Milledge and Petit. I believe Cameron and Floyd are in the final years of their contracts, right?

Milledge, Bannister and Petit may very well be late 2006 call ups.

Reyes
Kepp/Hernandez
Beltran
Ramirez
Wright
Jacobs
Diaz
Molina/Castro

Pedro - Glavine - Benson - Heilman - Bannister/Seo

Looper - Wagner

MFS62
Oct 08 2005 03:15 PM

""y'all got another think coming"

totally the wrong word for the phrase, but it still works in context. i like it."


That expression has been around for a very long time. You're right. It may not be proper grammar, but it "works".

Later

Frayed Knot
Oct 08 2005 05:16 PM

For what it's worth;
I heard [the Boston Globe's] Dan Shaughnessy on the radio today and he thinks that Boston will try to trade Manny; that they're tired of his act, his foibles and would love to get out from under that contract ... but that he doesn't think it'll be easy. He mentioned the Mets as a possibility - and why not, they talked already? - because they are one of the few that could take on a chunk of the contract. But even with all that, I don't think a deal with Beltran is anything other than a proposition concocted by fans saying; "hey, if the Mets wanna dump some salary to get him ... ".


On a personal note - and I've said this before - I don't want him!!!
Well, I kinda WANT him but I can't see wanting him at the price (contract and exchange) that I suspect it'll take to get him here. And while you're concocting imaginary trades, ask yourself:
- How that turning doubles into singles trick (on a regular basis) gonna play at Shea?
- Looking forward to watching him try to cover one of the larger LFs in MLB after watching how he often butchered the smallest one?
- How 'bout that drop the fly ball and laugh about it act ... and you think the fans hated Franco's alledged "smirk'?
- Gonna have fun watching him slide safely into 2nd then get tagged out when he goes to pick up his helmet while the play is still live?
- you think NYC fans are going to get a kick out of the stand-and-pose act? I mean jeez he even starts taking his batting gloves off before he leaves the box!
- if you think running out grounders should be an occasional act?
- and he starts getting better at his age right?
- And mainly just think to yourself why the team (in a DH league) that already has him at his currect production & price (and can afford it) is so G-D anxious to get him out of town.

Rockin' Doc
Oct 08 2005 07:40 PM

Thank you Frayed Knot for stating all of the reasons that I had (and even some I hadn't) thought of for not acquiring Ramirez, but was far too lazy to enumerate.

Manny's best suited to being a designated hitter. Unfortunately, the Red Sox have two such players in Ortiz and Ramirez. Looking beyond their hitting ability, I think Ortiz wins hands down when it comes to leadership, hustle, cost of his services, and the ease with which his defensive deficiencies can be hidden.

Edgy DC
Oct 08 2005 11:21 PM

Wanting to get rid of Floyd for whatever we can get is confusing because as soon as the Mets do, they'll desperately need somebody like Cliff Floyd.

He's the team's only lefthanded slugger, and the team is so shallow in the outfield that their fifth outfielder this season was Gerald Williams. And their best outfield prosepects aren't ready for plucking off the vine. Yeah, his health this season was a bonus unlikely to repeat itself. But don't try and move him thinking that nobody else suspects that. Instead, try and affect that by increasing the depth behind him.

Among Omar Minaya's 2004-2005 offseason moves the one with the greatest impact so far may not be having signed Pedro Martinez, but perhaps rather it was not trading Cliff Floyd for Sammy Sosa.

Can we go through one off-season without trying for an outfielder alienating his way out of his current job?

metirish
Oct 09 2005 01:18 AM

I never understood the trade Floyd "while he's hot" theory during the season, Cliff played great and put up great numbers and who's to say he won't play 150+ games next season and have better numbers?I know it might seem like folly to expect Floyd to have the same season but I'd keep him, he likes it in NY, likes playing for Willie and he had to have loved the fact that Mets fans loved him this year.....a healthy Floyd is a keeper.

seawolf17
Oct 09 2005 07:24 AM

I'm not saying I "want to get rid of Cliff." I'm just saying we should temper our expectations in '06. That's all.

Edgy DC
Oct 09 2005 08:24 AM

Well, you're sure playing Bait and Switch then.

]I love what Cliff did for this team this year, but if someone else wants him, I'd deal him in a second.

I think most operate with some variation on the reasonable expectation that Floyd probably won't have as much to bring next year.

Mex17
Oct 09 2005 08:41 AM

"I think most operate with some variation on the reasonable expectation that Floyd probably won't have as much to bring next year."

Why is this?? If he stays healthy I expect him to hit.

seawolf17
Oct 09 2005 09:24 AM

If Cliff Floyd is the best option to play left field for the Mets next year, I'm okay with that. I just don't know if he is the best option.

Edgy DC
Oct 09 2005 01:58 PM

]Why is this?? If he stays healthy I expect him to hit.


Because his health has usually been an issue and he'll be a year older.