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Time to shut him down....

Rockin' Doc
Sep 24 2005 11:29 PM

Willie says that Pedro is likely done for the season.

DocTee
Sep 24 2005 11:32 PM

15 wins 200+ innings 200+ K's

I'm OK with him missing his last two turns--

mlbaseballtalk
Sep 24 2005 11:44 PM

Hmm, wonder if anyone here feels the way a Chris Russo does when it comes to the Phillie series. The Phils and Astros are fighting for the wild card spot and Russo claimed that Met fans would be up in arms if the situation was reversed.

In other words, Russo used the example if we were in the Astros spot and a Diva like pitcher pulled this "stunt" despite playing the team that is about 3 games in back of us

Kind of goes towards the integrity issue since Pedro is healthy and can have an impact on the postseason

Then again, maybe I shouldn't listen to obvious anti-Pedro guys like Russo, Michael Kay, Don LaGreca, ect

Steve

smg58
Sep 25 2005 12:13 AM

If there weren't very legitimate reasons to be concerned about Pedro's health, the Astros would have a right to complain. But I think this is at least as much the management clearly acting in the team's best long-term interests as it is Pedro, and the Mad Dog knows less about New York baseball than most of his listeners do if he doesn't see that.

mlbaseballtalk
Sep 25 2005 12:23 AM

smg58 wrote:
If there weren't very legitimate reasons to be concerned about Pedro's health, the Astros would have a right to complain. But I think this is at least as much the management clearly acting in the team's best long-term interests as it is Pedro, and the Mad Dog knows less about New York baseball than most of his listeners do if he doesn't see that.


Well, not necessarilly here. Pedro does have a history of setting his own schedule (skiping the all star game, showing up late for Spring Traning, almost blowing Game 7 because he wanted to upstage Schilling, practically begged out of Game 7 the year before instead of gutting it out and letting the manager get fired because of it, ect)

So a guy like Russo, Kay, LaGreca, ect who never liked the guy in the first place is going to see this more of a "Pedro is dictating Mets policy" rather than Met management deciding to shut Pedro down

So I guess I'm kind of agreeing with them that there seems to be no glaring injury that 9 innings against the Phillies wouldn't hurt and this is Pedro being Pedro

Nymr83
Sep 25 2005 12:29 AM

-pedro hasn't thrown this many innings in 4 years
-pedro may be somewhat hurt
-pedro has always controlled his own schedule
-the mets are paying him for 3 more years and should protect their investment

the mets have every right to shut him down and that is the bottom line. they should be ripped a new one if he DIDNT sit.

mlbaseballtalk
Sep 25 2005 12:36 AM

Plus a win against the Phillies would kind of, sort of vindicate in a small way for the game at Shea which pretty much ended our season

Come to think of it, maybe after this situation where Pedro is shutting himself down, maybe its time to nudge Pedro's signing into the "quasi-bust" category or at least "Well we knew the crap that we were getting"

We figured going in that year 3 and year 4 were the question marks, could year 2 be a question mark now?

Great with Beltran AND Pedro now looking like busts, that makes last offseason look even worse! :roll:

mlbaseballtalk
Sep 25 2005 12:37 AM

Nymr83 wrote:
-pedro hasn't thrown this many innings in 4 years
-pedro may be somewhat hurt
-pedro has always controlled his own schedule
-the mets are paying him for 3 more years and should protect their investment

the mets have every right to shut him down and that is the bottom line. they should be ripped a new one if he DIDNT sit.


Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Juan Marichal, Tom Seaver, THEY WOULD HAVE PITCHED!

Men like Don Drysdale and Jim Hunter would be spinning in their graves over this

mlbaseballtalk
Sep 25 2005 12:39 AM

And at some point some organization has to get the stones and stand up to Pedro. Why can't it be the Mets right now in this situation huh? And the fact that we signed him FOR all that money is the reason he SHOULD go out there and give the "old college try" against the Phillies

G-Fafif
Sep 25 2005 01:26 AM

="mlbaseballtalk"]Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Juan Marichal, Tom Seaver, THEY WOULD HAVE PITCHED!


One might not have. In fact he didn't:

"On the last day of the [1970] season the Mets played the Cubs in a battle for second place. The team that won would finish second and collect at least a thousand dollars extra per man. It was Tom's turn to start but his shoulder had stiffened and he didn't start. Young Jim McAndrew, who had won only nine games, started and he was beaten by the Cub ace Ferguson Jenkins, 4-1. Several Mets grumbled that the Mets could have won if Tom had started."
--from Tom Seaver: An Intimate Portrait by John Devaney

Let's turn around and switch. Say the Mets had clinched the division (ahhhhh) and the Phillies were battling for the Wild Card with the Astros. Willie Randolph decides to conserve Pedro's strength for the post-season and announces he's shutting him down 'til Game One of the playoffs. In that case, I'm betting, there are few complaints (outside of Houston and the ubiquitous Don LaGreca) that Martinez isn't pitching. Now this is, sadly, a different circumstance but the core element is taking care of Pedro for the Mets' sake, not somebody else's race. (Of course the hypothetical division champion Mets would have more of an interest in the outcome of the Wild Card since they might have to play the winner in the LDS or LCS, but that's another story.)

I'm with Sparky Anderson on this. He said it was folderol to pretend there was one set of rules for 25 players and that there was no way he was going to treat Bench, Rose, Morgan and Perez the same way he treated some rookie. If the Mets have to handle Pedro a little delicately, especially after the season he just gave them, so be it, as long as it's all in the interest of Pedro 2006.

metsmarathon
Sep 25 2005 01:32 AM

stop.

please.

i'm tired of this catfish hunter, blah blah blah, tom seaver blah blah blah.

the days of pitchers doing that kind of crap are over and with very good reasons - money. there is too much invested in them to risk injuries for no good reason, and i'm sorry, giving a team in a pennant race a harder win isnt a good enough reason. we're not in the race, so thre's no reason at all why we shouldnt give some kid a shot.

also, back in the day, pitchers typically weren't babied coming up through hte minors, and so had developed more arm endurance, and those that couldnt were kicked to the curb after the inevetible injuries. nowadays, teams are more inclined to avoid those injuries, and so do not burden the arms as much - the result being arms that cannot shoulder the load, so to speak.

and so, given that we know that the arm in question does not have good endurance to begin with, and knowing that the arm in question has been itred lately, and knowing that we have a ton invested in this guy and NOTHING to gain from pitching him even one more inning this year, why would it matter what the HELL nolan ryan could do, when having pedro martinez try to do it would probably mean his not being able to do it next year?

its just a ridiculous argument.

SwitchHitter
Sep 25 2005 01:39 AM

After reading this, I can't complain about shutting someone down. It's not like the Mets are still in it or anything.

ScarletKnight41
Sep 25 2005 08:09 AM

Any of you who know me know that I didn't want the Mets to sign Pedro. I said publically that he was a diva and that it would be horrible dealing with his tantrums.

This season, he came through for us beyond my wildest imagination. He's been a team leader, an ace, and a bright spot for us at times when nobody else on this team shined at all.

IMO, the key to this has been that Pedro has been genuinely happy to be a Met. From the home opener at Shea throughout the season, he has felt the love and he has thrived on it.

Some guys pitch from the head. Some pitch from the heart. Pedro most certainly pitches from the heart. And if his heart isn't in it, he's not going to be effective.

I am not in favor of coddling players. I think it's bullshit for an ace to decide that he doesn't want to pitch the final week of the season (I believe in my heart that a similar tantrum cost him the 2002 AL Cy Young Award). That said, since for all intents and purposes the Mets are out of the race, if skipping next week's games will keep Pedro happy to be a Met and in a good frame of mind, then I can live with that.

Edgy DC
Sep 25 2005 08:28 AM

]Well, not necessarilly here. Pedro does have a history of setting his own schedule (skiping the all star game, showing up late for Spring Traning, almost blowing Game 7 because he wanted to upstage Schilling, practically begged out of Game 7 the year before instead of gutting it out and letting the manager get fired because of it, ect)


These examples are declining from the known to the imagined.

]Plus a win against the Phillies would kind of, sort of vindicate in a small way for the game at Shea which pretty much ended our season

Come to think of it, maybe after this situation where Pedro is shutting himself down, maybe its time to nudge Pedro's signing into the "quasi-bust" category or at least "Well we knew the crap that we were getting"

We figured going in that year 3 and year 4 were the question marks, could year 2 be a question mark now?

Great with Beltran AND Pedro now looking like busts, that makes last offseason look even worse! :roll:


You're going from speculation to believing your own speculation to drawing broad conclusions about the future based only on your own speculation. You're working yourself up.

]Men like Don Drysdale and Jim Hunter would be spinning in their graves over this.


Both these guys were mediocrities by the time they hit 31. Pedro's 33 and the fourth best pitcher in the league. Leave the dead to the dead.

Let's not draw six years of conclusions because a guy skipped a start.

Iubitul
Sep 25 2005 09:19 AM

mlbaseballtalk wrote:

So a guy like Russo, Kay, LaGreca, ect who never liked the guy in the first place is going to see this more of a "Pedro is dictating Mets policy" rather than Met management deciding to shut Pedro down


I don't give a damn what they think - 8 innings against the Phillies won't change their preconceived notions. Don't think for a minute that LaGreca and Kay wouldn't be singing a different tune if Pedro was a MFY

Nymr83
Sep 25 2005 09:37 AM

]but the core element is taking care of Pedro for the Mets' sake, not somebody else's race


thats really all that needs to be said.
someone please show us how it is not in the METS interest to shut him down.
i don't think this has anythig to do with his being a "diva." if the 2 starts he is going to miss mattered for the mets he'd be making them and thats what counts.
there is no reason to play an "injury prone" veteran the last week of a wasted season. i'd go so far as to say shutting down floyd as a precaution might not hurt either, except that we may wish to trade him and wouldn't want other teams to get the wrong idea.

Frayed Knot
Sep 25 2005 09:51 PM

Also:

- As to the prima donna question (or, as some used to put it on another forum; the [u:6918a54c22]Pre-Madonna[/u:6918a54c22] question):
it's not clear whether this is Pedro setting this (shutdown) schedule or the team. Quite likely, it's a meeting of the minds of both parties.

- As to a possible Houston complaint:
it's not like the Mets are going to start some minor league nobody in his stead. It'll likely be Zambrano and Philly is going to see 3 legit ML pitchers in this series.

Edgy DC
Sep 26 2005 02:23 PM

So, according to the report linked at the top of this thread, among others,
]Martinez is next set to start Tuesday, and Randolph said: "If we're mathematically eliminated by then, then he definitely won't pitch."

If the Mets win tonight, the Mets are still officially alive at the start of play tomorrow night, when Pedro's turn comes around and Zambrano is currently listed as the probable starter.

Centerfield
Sep 26 2005 03:21 PM

I wonder if the right toe injury has anything to do with the decreased velocity. If his fastball remains in the mid-to high 80's next season, I suspect it won't take long before the league figures him out. The death of his fastball has been all but ignored by the media, but it's a bad sign if someone starts the season in the low 90's and ends topping out around 88.

Rotblatt
Sep 26 2005 03:36 PM

Petey's been a gamer all season long and I have no problem whatsoever with taking him out the rest of the season. And really, how is this any different from teams trotting out prospects there to see how they do?

He's consistently pitched his ass off even when he was clearly working off of fumes, and if his September line of 2.25 ERA, 1.18 WHIP, 2.5 K/BB is a precursor of what we can expect in 2006, I'm a happy fucking camper.

If I'm an Astros fan right now, I'm happy with the Mets for knocking Florida & Washington out of the race and hope they do the same for the Phillies. They've got nothing to complain about.

Elster88
Sep 27 2005 10:15 AM

]If I'm an Astros fan right now, I'm happy with the Mets for knocking Florida & Washington out of the race and hope they do the same for the Phillies. They've got nothing to complain about.


Exactly
_____________________________
This post had the designation 145) Cal Koonce

Edgy DC
Sep 27 2005 10:18 AM

So, Zambrano or Martinez tonight?

Martinez would be consistent with Randolph's statement.

Yancy Street Gang
Sep 27 2005 10:28 AM

Now, if Bret were here, he'd tell you that everything the Mets say is a lie, and if Zambrano starts tonight, that would be additional proof (as if any is needed) of that.

Me, I'd let Zambrano start. If the Mets win tonight, and tomorrow, and are STILL mathematically alive at that point, I'd consider starting an extra-rested Pedro.

Since the Mets have to win ALL of their games, tonight's game is no more important than Thursday's. And if the Mets do pull off a miracle, they'll have a less worn Pedro for the playoffs.

Iubitul
Sep 27 2005 11:29 AM

According to the [url=http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/story/350110p-298689c.html]Daily News[/url], Pedro is out, elimination or no:
]Foot scratch: When the Mets announced Pedro Martinez would not make his final two starts of the season, they tied it to the team being mathematically eliminated. In reality, the Mets were committed to scratching Martinez regardless because of his ailing right foot. Victor Zambrano is instead scheduled to start tonight and in Sunday's season finale. . . .

Yancy Street Gang
Sep 27 2005 11:30 AM

Aha!

If only that guy with the crucifix was here.

Vic Sage
Sep 27 2005 03:13 PM

]maybe after this situation where Pedro is shutting himself down, maybe its time to nudge Pedro's signing into the "quasi-bust" category or at least "Well we knew the crap that we were getting"

We figured going in that year 3 and year 4 were the question marks, could year 2 be a question mark now?

Great with Beltran AND Pedro now looking like busts, that makes last offseason look even worse!


Pedro is a "quasi-bust"?
As statements about the Mets go, this one would have to be a helluva more thoughtful to even achieve the level of "utterly moronic".