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Going Nine - Pondering Piniella

Mark Healey
Sep 22 2005 10:02 AM

Curious to see what you guys think:

http://www.gothambaseball.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1149

Yancy Street Gang
Sep 22 2005 10:18 AM

I think the last paragraph was a little gratuitous. If the Mets were to hire Piniella, it would be unconnected to the Kazmir deal. It's not like Piniella was the "manager to be named later" in that deal.

But I agree with what I think is your larger point: Willie Randolph doesn't necessarily have to return next year. If a better candidate should become available, they should consider making a change.

I wouldn't be thrilled about Piniella. But I'm not thrilled with Randolph either. The Mets should at least be discussing possibilities.

Elster88
Sep 22 2005 10:27 AM

I don't think there's a chance in the world that anyone besides Willie is the manager in 2006. Politics is politics.
_____________________________
This post had the designation 147) Jeff Reardon

sharpie
Sep 22 2005 10:30 AM

What Elster said.

Also, the whole "I'm the yellingest manager in town" thing wears quickly with me. He also seems to have no interest in pitchers.

metirish
Sep 22 2005 10:35 AM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 22 2005 10:39 AM

Yeah this is a year late, I like most I'm sure would be shocked if WWSB were not the manager next year, although with guys like Bill Madden in the Daily News stirring the pot you never know, to be honest I'd be more than happy to have Lou replace Willie.

Valadius
Sep 22 2005 10:37 AM

Somehow, I don't think Pedro would appreciate Lou Piniella as manager...

metirish
Sep 22 2005 10:46 AM

Why is that Val, I think Pedro gets a bad rap for no real reason, I doubt a change would bother him, he's a pro.

Edgy DC
Sep 22 2005 10:47 AM

]Depending on who you talk to, it could either be the greatest in a series of public relations disasters for the Mets, or a signal to the rest of baseball that the club is ready to put winning at the top of the list.


Let's look for a lot fewer transactions that symbolically represent a winning club and a few more that practically build one.

This'll be actually an interesting offseason for the Yankees and Torre (not that they all aren't). If the Yanks come up short --- and that means anything but a championship --- there'll be Pinella, Valentine, and reportedly Davey Johnson available for the right price.

Elster88
Sep 22 2005 10:53 AM

I'm not a Willie-hater. But having him manage the Mets while either Bobby V or Davey managing the Skankwhores would suck big hairy mooseballs.

This fucking sucks. We couldn't have let Art manage one more season?
_____________________________
This post had the designation 147) Jeff Reardon

Mark Healey
Sep 22 2005 10:59 AM

Elster88 wrote:
I don't think there's a chance in the world that anyone besides Willie is the manager in 2006. Politics is politics.
_____________________________
This post had the designation 147) Jeff Reardon



First of all, thanks for all the feedback guys.

Secondly, I don't disagree, Elster. The reason for this column came after I said just as much to a veteran NY sportswriter I was sharing a smoke break .with last night.

Not only does he love Willie, he also is the last person I expected to say that it was the right move. Players like playing for Piniella, he's a good talent evaluator.

I'm not a huge fan of Sweet Lou, but baseball is, and I still maintain that the Randoplh hire was a terrible one.

Are the Mets a better team than they were last year. Yes.

A.) Pedro
B.) Wright
C.) Reyes

Omar gets far more credit (and blame) for what the Mets have done this year. As far as I am concerned, Willie was a mostly a non-factor whose handling of the pitching staff remains a huge question mark, based on recent information..

Frayed Knot
Sep 22 2005 10:59 AM

I think Lou's probably a good manager ... BUT:

1) I don't think Willie's performance warrants being fired

2) I know the press loves Lou and they're going to be beating the drum loudly for this one. Hell, Lou drinks, he smokes, he cusses, he gambles, he's got NYC attitude and he's often sloppy and unshaven ... in other words, he's just like many of them!
But getting a manager because it'll "steal the back pages" and give the beat guys and columnists a colorful guy to cover isn't enough of a reason to do it.

3) Whatever intangible benefits the Mets may see in "making the bold move" essentially gets erased by looking likes dolts by deciding to go in a new direction each time some shiny new (or, in this case, not so new) bauble gets dangled in front of their eyes.

4) Do we really thing Lou will make that much of a difference? As he gets credit for the Mariner 116-win season does he also get the blame for flaming out meekly in the playoffs that year? And how was the 3-year improvement in Tampa? Yeah that org suxx and they won't spend any money but he's got better talent now then he had when he got there but the record is barely improved.

5) Doing something as an attempt to somehow mentally erase the Kazmir deal is a really, really stupid idea.

metsmarathon
Sep 22 2005 11:10 AM

i can think of very few compelling reasons to dump willie and go for sweet lou.

willie hasn't done poorly enough to get hisself fired, and i feel his second year should be better than his first. he also does seem to have the team behind him, and that's not something you piss on. and i'm not so sure that sweet lou will do much better for this team than willie would, either.

i'd much rather see him go to the yanks and fail, personally - even though i have nothing against him.

smg58
Sep 22 2005 11:32 AM

I'm willing to give Willie the opportunity to learn from his mistakes. Besides, it's not at all clear that the D-Rays have benefited any from Lou's presence. And given Young and Upton, Lou woulld be dumb to leave now.

Rotblatt
Sep 22 2005 11:41 AM

I don't know enough about Pinella. My priorities would be 1) a good tactical manager, 2) able to win & keep the respect of his players & 3) good at molding young talent.

I have no idea where Lou is, although my understanding is that 2 wouldn't be a problem and 3 might be. Willie seems fine with 2 & 3, so it would all come down to what sort of tactical manager Lou is.

Anyone have any insight on that? Specifically, how he uses his pitchers, how often he goes to the bench and in what situations, etc.

Elster88
Sep 22 2005 12:25 PM

I'm surprised that you think Willie is good at #3 (molding young talent) when a huge topic for discussion here at the CPF has been his overuse of Graves and DeJean instead of guys like Bell. I believe your exact phrase was "his baffling attachment to "proven" veterans like Cairo, Ishii, DeJean, Graves, etc.", though you did back off this stance somewhat later on.
_____________________________
This post had the designation 147) Jeff Reardon

Rotblatt
Sep 22 2005 01:00 PM

]I'm surprised that you think Willie is good at #3 (molding young talent) when a huge topic for discussion here at the CPF has been his overuse of Graves and DeJean instead of guys like Bell. I believe your exact phrase was "his baffling attachment to "proven" veterans like Cairo, Ishii, DeJean, Graves, etc.", though you did back off this stance somewhat later on.


I guess I can see why you'd be surprised . . .

Here's my thinking: Wright, Heilman, Seo & Jacobs and to a lesser extent, Reyes & Bell have all progressed nicely this season. I give Willie some credit for that, although not for any particularly good reason; I just figure at the very least, he didn't fuck them up.

HOWEVER, he hasn't used these improved players appopriately, IMO--they weren't be leveraged as well as they should have been. I regard that as a tactical problem, rather than a player development problem, although in Seo's case, it might be both. Dominating minor leaguers for an entire 4 months probably didn't help Seo as much as adjusting to big league hitting would have . . .

The only other minor leaguers who were truly wasted, so far as I can tell, were Daubach (who got a shot, albeit a tiny one) & Valent (ditto) and they're not exactly prospects.

In a vacuum, I don't think leaving Hernandez (who struggled at the end of the season) & Lambin (who did very well, but didn't necessarily dominate) down in AAA was a bad idea in terms of their individual development. It's just that Cairo was SO BAD that I thought one of them probably could have helped us at the MLB level.

Hopefully that makes a little more sense.

DocTee
Sep 22 2005 01:32 PM

]Anyone have any insight on that? Specifically, how he uses his pitchers, how often he goes to the bench and in what situations, etc.


Granted, he hasn't had much to work with on Tampa Bay's staff, but didn't he consider starting his relievers and letting them pitch 2 innings each, since they were more effective than his 5-inning starters? Not sure if that answers your question, but you don't expect to see that kind of tactic in the big leagues.

Edgy DC
Sep 22 2005 01:40 PM

There's an argument that leveraging a young player's abilitites best and facilitating his development aren't always the same thing.

Edgy DC
Sep 30 2005 12:45 PM

Back to Lupa Nella.

There's always the Yankees hanging out there, but there's also a big fat opening in Baltimore I bet he has a 50% chance of getting.

Mark Healey
Sep 30 2005 06:40 PM

Edgy DC wrote:
Back to Lupa Nella.

There's always the Yankees hanging out there, but there's also a big fat opening in Baltimore I bet he has a 50% chance of getting.


I would be shocked if they hired anoither "Yankee", myself.

IMO, they should keep Perlozzo...He knows thgeir system as well as anyone, and they'll need a guy like that to help develop the young pitchers they have like hayden Penn, etc.

Oberkefell is on their short list as well.

Rotblatt
Sep 30 2005 09:36 PM

I like Oberkfell and hope he stays in the Mets organization. He seems to do nice work with the kids.

Plus, he's got some spunk in him. Here's what he had to say about the guy who ruined Keppinger's season on a nasty take-out slide:

]ď[Martinez is] a hot-dogging bush-leaguer who runs and hides behind his teammates. Iíll say that to his face. Hopefully Iíll get the chance to do just that. Whatís the saying? Payback is what? We have more games left with them this season. People in baseball donít forget. Itís a given.Ē

Mark Healey
Sep 30 2005 10:15 PM

Rotblatt wrote:
I like Oberkfell and hope he stays in the Mets organization. He seems to do nice work with the kids.

Plus, he's got some spunk in him. Here's what he had to say about the guy who ruined Keppinger's season on a nasty take-out slide:

]ď[Martinez is] a hot-dogging bush-leaguer who runs and hides behind his teammates. Iíll say that to his face. Hopefully Iíll get the chance to do just that. Whatís the saying? Payback is what? We have more games left with them this season. People in baseball donít forget. Itís a given.Ē


If Jack Bowen (now the asst GM in Pittsburgh) stays with the Pirates (it's been rumored that Bowen may leave to go to Arizona) it's a good chance he could go there as well.

DocTee
Sep 30 2005 10:18 PM

IIRC, Pinella went to Tampa so as to be close to his home...if that remains the case (and one could reasonably expect that), then a move to Miami to replace McKeon is a fair guess. I think it's a good fit--let's see Cabrera pull his stunts with Sweet Lou!

Zvon
Oct 01 2005 08:51 AM

McKeon aint goin anywhere.

I really wanted Lou when we were manager shopping before this season.
I thought he would have been a good fit as far as dealing with NY. And Id love to see him manage the Mets vs the Skanks in the WS ( just fantasy thinkin).

But I didnt think Randolf was a bad choice, still dont, and he aint goin anywhere for the next 2 seasons either.

Frayed Knot
Oct 01 2005 09:37 AM

]McKeon aint goin anywhere.


Oh I'd be shocked if he's still manager next year.
Now he'll likely remain in the Marlin Org somewhere - special asst to owner Loria or something - but I think they'll be looking for a mgr.
Whether Piniella fits there I'm not sure. I think Bal'mer is a very real possibility for him.


btw, the whole buyout thing became official last night and Lou WILL be able to take any job he wants. Sometimes buyouts make the guy sit out the year in orde to get the pay, but not here. Probably got a partial payment for '06.

seawolf17
Oct 01 2005 09:52 AM

I have to figure McKeon's gone also. They say (whoever "they" are) that he's lost the team, the players don't respect him any longer, etc. He's old, and if his contract is up, I'd bet they let him go.

Zvon
Oct 02 2005 09:58 PM

Zvon wrote:
McKeon aint goin anywhere.


I love makin a fool of myself here. :lol:

Edgy DC
Oct 03 2005 09:25 AM

]MLB TRANSACTIONS

Sunday, October 2, 2005

TEAM: FLORIDA MARLINS

Announced resignation of manager Jack McKeon, who will stay on as special advisor.