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Cliff Floyd's Legacy

Valadius
Sep 07 2005 10:37 AM

Some people have tossed around the idea that Cliff Floyd might be gone after this season. I sure hope not. But if he does leave, what legacy as a Met will he leave behind? Where does he rank as an all-time Met?

The first thing I think about when I think of Cliff Floyd as a Met was him hobbling out there in the outfield with that bad Achilles. He's been one hell of a team player. He gives his all, even when he's hurt.

d'Kong76
Sep 07 2005 10:47 AM

Well, we ranked him 99th through 2004. 2005 should elevate him some.

bang-pow

seawolf17
Sep 07 2005 10:47 AM

Good question. He's probably third on the all-time Met left fielders list, behind Cleon and McReynolds. If Cliff was able to spend another season or two and/or win a title of some kind (division, wild card, whatever), he might pass McReynolds. He would certainly be remembered fondly if this was it.

Edgy MD
Sep 07 2005 11:01 AM

As of today, Cliff is the 58th most accomplished Met of all time, Crane Pool-style. He is 84 points behind Bret Saberhagen (57) and 28 ahead of Jack Fisher (59). There is a big gap between Saberhagen and Turk Wendell (56) and Floyd projects to land in that gap and finish the season behind the Turkster as ALL-TIME MET 57.

Go, Cliff, go!

Vic Sage
Sep 07 2005 11:31 AM

So far he's had 1 good year out of 3 for the Mets. He missed 1/3 of each of his prior 2 seasons to injuries, as is his nature. In fact, in discussing Floyd's "legacy", you undoubtedly have to talk about what he COULD have been had he not lost so much playing time to his various ailments over the years.

Bernard Gilkey had, arguably, the best season by any Mets LFer ever. Even if Floyd maintains his current hitting pace this year, he will not surpass Gilkey's 96 season. So, unless Floyd has another good year here next season, i'd still put Gilkey's 96 ahead of Floyd's Mets career to date.

Elster88
Sep 07 2005 12:09 PM

seawolf17 wrote:
Good question. He's probably third on the all-time Met left fielders list, behind Cleon and McReynolds. If Cliff was able to spend another season or two and/or win a title of some kind (division, wild card, whatever), he might pass McReynolds. He would certainly be remembered fondly if this was it.


I'm guessing this will anger those who don't like Mac because he likes hunting more than baseball and those who were alive in '69, but McReynolds should rank above Cleon.

Cliff shouldn't catch him without at least three good seasons, or two GilkeyIn96-esque seasons. And one good season plus a WS ring doesn't count.
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seawolf17
Sep 07 2005 12:11 PM

Thank you, Elster! I rank K-Mac ahead of Cleon also, but I think the general populace doesn't, so I listed them the way I did.

Edgy MD
Sep 07 2005 12:19 PM

The general populace --- despite the Simple Minds tribute --- barely remembers Cleon. He was beaten by McReynolds in the Neyer book about all-time teams. He was beaten by a two-centerfielder squad with Mookie and Dykstra in the fan vote a few years back.

This opens up the can of worms about what longevity is worth, but Crane Pool Forum rankers settled on Cleon Jones ninth all-time and Kevin McReynolds 18th. Going strictly by the accomplishments as a left fielder, it's probably closer than that, because Jones put in a lot more time at other positions.

Frayed Knot
Sep 07 2005 12:24 PM

Edgy DC wrote:
As of today, Cliff is the 58th most accomplished Met of all time, Crane Pool-style. He is 84 points behind Bret Saberhagen (57) and 28 ahead of Jack Fisher (59). There is a big gap between Saberhagen and Turk Wendell (56) and Floyd projects to land in that gap and finish the season behind the Turkster as ALL-TIME MET 57.


What do you do, update this stuff daily?



Ignoring for a second that much of the Met populace regards McReynolds as slightly lower than Joe Foy, Cleon did spend 12 seasons as a Met (about 9 or 10 full ones) to only about half that for K-Mac.

Valadius
Sep 07 2005 12:29 PM

Perhaps we should revisit our rankings?

Valadius
Sep 07 2005 12:32 PM

Since you're privy to the current rankings, Edgy, how much have Wright, Reyes, and Piazza shot up so far this year?

Edgy MD
Sep 07 2005 12:43 PM

Piazza has gone from tenth to fifth, and there he shall likely stay until displaced, as a canyon-like gulf stands betwen himself and number-four. It would take two more healthy and productive seasons for him to climb any further.

David Wright and Jose Reyes have already cracked the top 100, at 98 and 100, respectively, after starting the season at 167 and 165, respectively.

Valadius
Sep 07 2005 12:46 PM

Wait... on the rankings sheet it lists Wright at 201 and Looper at 167.

Edgy MD
Sep 07 2005 12:59 PM

Yeah, I, um, meant that.

seawolf17
Sep 07 2005 01:40 PM

Edgy likes to combine players arbitrarily to push them up higher in the rankings. That's why some guy named "Mookie Fernandez" is ranked 76th.

Rockin' Doc
Sep 07 2005 05:03 PM

How are people moving up the rankings during the season? I thought the current season was not ranked and the results added to the cumulative rankings until the season was complete.

Maybe I need to review the Rankings For Dummies thread.

Frayed Knot
Sep 07 2005 05:38 PM

Officially nobody's moved anywhere and until we actually waste several months arguing over the 2005 rankings it's unknown exactly where these guys will wind up, nor do they ever really occupy a place in between.
What Edgy is doing is something along the lines of concocting an in-season ranking as well as either using an ongoing win total or projecting a final total

Having said that, Piazza's spot is pretty much sewn up. There's almost no chance that he winds up anywhere other than the #5 spot as mentioned. And even if he stays here and plays another year or two he'll probably stay at #5 unless he defies the odds and the gods (and Bret S. of course) and somehow retuns to superstardom level again.

Zvon
Sep 07 2005 05:53 PM

if it wasnt for what Ive seen from him this season, id kick him in the ass on his way out and call him a soft cryin baby bum.

But what he has done this year has changed all that.
This is the Floyd i had hoped to see from day one.

Seasons past I thought he was just overplaying injuries and more concerned with himself. But the way he has battled thru the bumps and bruises this year, and shown a team attitude that was not apparent in the past, I cant say enough about him. Hes a playah.

Funny how in baseball you can do that without a problem.
Believe a guys a total bum and then believe he's all that and a bag of chips. but.......wait for it.......DatsAbaseball :)

Valadius
Sep 07 2005 07:12 PM

What the hell are you talking about? How could you call him a crybaby when he was out there busting his ass on a bad Achilles every goddamn day?

Rockin' Doc
Sep 07 2005 07:21 PM

FK - "Officially nobody's moved anywhere and until we actually waste several months arguing over the 2005 rankings it's unknown exactly where these guys will wind up, nor do they ever really occupy a place in between."

Now that's the CPF I have come to know and love.

Zvon - regarding Floyd - " Seasons past I thought he was just overplaying injuries and more concerned with himself. But the way he has battled thru the bumps and bruises this year, and shown a team attitude that was not apparent in the past, I cant say enough about him. Hes a playah."

I thought Floyd was a trooper in 2003. His production might not have been what we had expected, but it seemed pretty obvious he was playing in pain most of the season. He hung in there and kept playing until the Mets went in the tank in August and it was obvvious to all but the most delusional of Mets fans that they weren't going to sniff the post season. At that time, he opted to pack it in and have surgery on his achilles, so that he could come back for the start of the 2004 season. Cliff has been one of my favorites players ever since I watched him limp around the field that season.

TheOldMole
Sep 07 2005 07:45 PM

The general populace is wrong.

Rockin' Doc
Sep 07 2005 07:59 PM

Looper apparently not looking to be upwardly mobile.

Zvon
Sep 07 2005 09:21 PM

Valadius wrote:
What the hell are you talking about? How could you call him a crybaby when he was out there busting his ass on a bad Achilles every goddamn day?


I suppose I was being a bit harsh with the crying part.
His struggling tendon aside, he had not given us what we needed from a left fielder.
Suffice to say that he has disappointed me up until this season.
And his hard work this year has changed my opinion of him, to his credit.

I like to see a player play to his full potential.

Elster88
Sep 08 2005 08:11 AM

Rockin' Doc wrote:
until the Mets went in the tank in August and it was obvvious to all but the most delusional of Mets fans that they weren't going to sniff the post season.


Watch it now. Some would say that includes most of the posters on this forum.
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Edgy MD
Sep 08 2005 09:16 AM

Not giving us what we need from a leftfielder should not reflect so on a guy's character --- particularly an injured guy.

What I did for the purposes of this thread is treat the PotG rankings as if they were our consensus rankings and work with those against our win totals.

After Piazza, the highest ranked active player was Steve Trachsel, but he hadn't earned enough 2005 points to move any as of the time of my ranking. He may be done as a Met after this season, but he has a chance to use September to bump up a slot or two from his current ranking as the 51st-most accomplished Met. He is currently the 14th-most accomplished Met starting pitcher, but ulikely to reach 13 this season.

seawolf17
Sep 08 2005 09:18 AM

This is bordering on a threadjack, but...

Steve Trachsel might be the fourteenth most accomplished Met starter of all time?!?! Wow.

Edgy MD
Sep 08 2005 09:26 AM

Steve Trachsel's Legacy

Frayed Knot
Sep 08 2005 09:54 AM

Better NYM starters than Steve Trachsel:

Seaver
Gooden
Koosman
Fernandez
Leiter
Darling
Matlack
Cone
Bobby Jones
Rick Reed
Ojeda
Swan
Gentry


Who else you want?
Jim McAndrew ... Ray Sadecki ... Bret Saberhagen ... Jack Fisher ... Ed Lynch?

Elster88
Sep 08 2005 09:55 AM

A couple more years like this and Pedro will probably pass him.
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This was Elster88’s last post with the designation 161) Johnny Lewis

old original jb
Sep 08 2005 12:16 PM
Cliff Floyd has always busted his butt.

He's always been willing to play hard, hurt or not.
However, lately I've gotten the feeling that he should cut down on the post game commentaries.

Over the years he's said things that have rubbed people the wrong way--usually in attempts to explain why things were going badly--and I've brushed them off because I felt he has been a "trooper". But this past week, I read comments from him about how Atlanta just knows they are going to beat the Mets when they play at Turner Field, no matter what happens. These comments hit me the wrong way. There was a fatalistic passivity to it--it sounded like he felt beaten before the bus pulled up to the Turner parking lot. Not what I want to hear from anyone on the Mets, let alone the guy who has been at the core of the offense.

I hope he really doesn't feel that way, and that he just has hard time expressing himself, but based on prior comments that I vaguely remember he made at times when the team was losing, I wonder; he gives me the impression of someone who carries around the idea that when you are losing, there may not be much you can do about it.

MFS62
Sep 08 2005 12:36 PM

FK, Jon Matlack was 125-126 for his career, 82-81 for the Mets
Steve Traschel was (prior to this year) 118-131 for his career, 50-47 for the Mets.

Why do you think Jon was definitely that much better as a Met?

Later

Elster88
Sep 08 2005 12:38 PM

62, I think LFK's his point was that Trachsel legitimately is one of the top 14. Your point strengthens his.
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MFS62
Sep 08 2005 12:43 PM

He said "better than". But he also painfully demonstrated that the list sure falls off quickly after that.

Later