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All Purpose "What Were They Thinking?" Thread

Rotblatt
Sep 06 2005 09:44 AM

Here's where we can discuss boneheaded plays/moves/etc. in the final four weeks of the season.

The Mets purchased the contract of Graves from AAA, where he gave up 12 runs, 15 hits and seven walks in six innings for Norfolk.

As I said when Irish first heard about this decision, this is retarded. For the season, Graves has a 6.63 ERA & a 2.05 WHIP in the bigs, and he's been even WORSE (if that's possible) in the minors. I'd go into his other peripherals, but what's the point?

There is NO valid reason to have him on a major league roster right now. If he'd hit AAA and put up some zeroes (as other Mets pitching failures Aybar & Ishii have done) maybe I could see calling him up, but this move is pretty much indefensible, IMO.

Well, actually, there is one valid reason for bringing him up, which is that Norfolk manager Oberkfell didn't want him on his playoff roster. I know addition by subtraction doesn't usually work, but in this case, not having Graves just MIGHT help Norfolk advance past Toledo in the playoffs . . .

metirish
Sep 06 2005 09:48 AM

Graves must have had something oral going with Omar, some sort of aggreement before he signed,IIRC he was told when he was sent down that he would get called back up in September.

DocTee
Sep 06 2005 09:54 AM

]Graves must have had something oral going with Omar



My thoughts exactly...

]some sort of aggreement before he signed,IIRC he was told when he was sent down that he would get called back up in September.



uh, never mind.

Edgy DC
Sep 06 2005 10:03 AM

It's not like a roster slot in September keeps another pitcher down. So the only cost to the team is another hotel bed and his per diems.

Rockin' Doc
Sep 06 2005 10:40 AM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 06 2005 04:44 PM

The Mets line up could use some extra batting practice. I think Graves would make a great BP pitcher. Everyone else seems to hit him hard, maybe it's contagious.

Seriously, I see little use for him other than pitching in total blow outs. Edgy is correct that Graves' presence on the team doesn't really cost the team much....that is if they don't allow him to actually pitch.


Edited for omission of the word if.

sharpie
Sep 06 2005 10:44 AM

I can't imagine that he would be used in anything other than blowouts. With expanded rosters this move doesn't hurt us.

metsmarathon
Sep 06 2005 11:48 AM

it only hurts if they use him...

Rotblatt
Sep 06 2005 11:48 AM

]Seriously, I see little other use for him other than pitching in total blow outs. Edgy is correct that Graves' presence on the team doesn't really cost the team much....that is they don't allow him to actually pitch.


Graves isn't safe even in blowouts, remember? And wouldn't you all rather see a kid or at least a pitcher with upside fill that spot, ala McGinley, Bannister, Ring, Santiago, Scobie, etc.? Any of those pitchers could conceivably help us in meaningful games like, say, an extra inning game or the day after an extra-inning game. Graves has demostrated that he can't.

I don't think the question should be, "Will this hurt us," but "Will this help us" and the answer to the latter is a resounding no.

I mean, if Willie & Omar went completely bonkers and signed a horse to be our 15th man from the pen, would you all say, "Well, it won't hurt us since we probably won't need him anyway"?

And we're STILL in a playoff race, despite our best efforts to play our way out of it. We should be trying to improve the team, and adding Graves, if we're lucky and WIllie never ever uses him, at best keeps us where we are.

Rockin' Doc
Sep 06 2005 04:52 PM

Rotblatt - I don't think the question should be, "Will this hurt us," but "Will this help us" and the answer to the latter is a resounding no.

Good point. Unless the Mets somehow think there is hope in reviving Danny Graves career as an effective major league pitcher in the near future, then you are correct, there is absolutely no reason to keep him around. He's not too old to possibly get his career back on track, but I'm quite skeptical that he will ever near his former level of effectiveness. So I would prefer a youngster get a shot in the pen or perhaps a bat was added to the bench instead.

Edgy DC
Sep 06 2005 05:02 PM

Either way, the un-named youngster will still be there come spring. If they think another look at Graves could help --- and they clearly hope so --- the last chance is now.

Bret Sabermetric
Sep 06 2005 07:01 PM

Edgy DC wrote:
Either way, the un-named youngster will still be there come spring. .


Unless they deal him off for some old worthless retread, but when has this club ever done that?

MFS62
Sep 06 2005 07:25 PM

Edgy DC wrote:
Either way, the un-named youngster will still be there come spring. If they think another look at Graves could help --- and they clearly hope so --- the last chance is now.


That is, unless they lose that unnamed youngster in the Rule V Draft because they protected Graves.

Later

Edgy DC
Sep 06 2005 08:31 PM

Which is an entirely different issue, isn't it?

Rotblatt
Sep 06 2005 11:07 PM

Edgy DC wrote:
Either way, the un-named youngster will still be there come spring. If they think another look at Graves could help --- and they clearly hope so --- the last chance is now.


Why is the last chance now? We make him a non-roster invitee next year and let him play for a spot. After his season, he's not likely to get a much better offer than that. And if we're REALLY high on him, I suppose we could sign him to a minor league contract in the offseason.

It is precisely the fact that the Mets think that Graves could possibly be worth another look at that I find so unbelievabley stupid. After 5 months of constant, indisputable suckitude, what more could they possibly need to see?

And I disagree with your premise that the two issues--playing washed-up retreads at the end of a season and trading youngsters during the offseason--are unrelated. We don't know how Anderson Hernandez, Jason Scobie, Brian Bannister, etc., will do against major leaguers. Maybe we're currently undervaluing them. Maybe we're overvaluing them. Maybe we have a guy down in Norfolk or Binghamton who just needs a little kick in the ass or a sage word of advice from a vet to launch a long major league career. Maybe after seeing them play for a month in the bigs, we'll be able to make a more educated assessment about their likeliehood of being able to make it which will cause us to hang on to them. Maybe they'll drive up their trade value and we'll be able to get more for them.

Our prospects are unkown quantities until we see them in the bigs, and by giving them a taste, we can get a better sense of what we've really got.
Graves, on the other hand, is a perfectly known quantity--or should be, anyway.

Rotblatt
Sep 08 2005 07:27 AM

What was Beltran thinking when he tried to steal third with one out, a runner at first, and Wright at bat?

Bad, bad move.

And what was Willie thinking when he left Loop in there for the 10th and allowed him to load the bases without recording an out?

]Randolph had no reservations about sending Looper back out for redemption. "We have to win the game and he's my closer," the manager said.


Ah, yes, "he's my closer." What ever happened to going with whomever gives us the best chance to win?

And if "he's your closer" was your answer, why did you pull him after loading the bases? He's still your closer, right?

Goddamn, last night sucked.

Iubitul
Sep 08 2005 07:36 AM

I'd like to see a show of hands...

Who didn't see it coming?

(sees no hands raised)
That's what I thought...

MFS62
Sep 08 2005 07:55 AM

Edgy DC wrote:
Which is an entirely different issue, isn't it?


No, its part of the same theme - will Graves be getting a look in Spring Training instead of some youngster. (key word being instead)
You indicated that Graves' innings would not prevent the Mets from also looking at a youngster. I gave an example of how retaining Graves might do that.

Later