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You got to feel bad for Zambrano

Bret Sabermetric
Aug 29 2005 03:15 PM

I know people have been dumping on him, me especially, since he got here, because of the way he got here, and now that Trax is getting bumped so Peterson can show off his prize bobo and show us all that the Kazmir deal was SO smart, but still you have to feel for the poor schmuck.

He could have won us over, or had me pop an embolism at least, by pitching fabulously, of course, but then he's not the one who traded himself for Kazmir, and he's only as good as he is, which hasn't been half -bad. I feel sorry for the guy, though I despise the arrogance of the organization that is continually soiling itself to show us how smart they were and how dumb us fans were to complain about the deal of last July.

Poor Victor Innameonly. Who was that character in Al Capp, with the black cloud following him where ever he went?

Zvon
Aug 29 2005 03:52 PM
Re: You got to feel bad for Zambrano

Bret Sabermetric wrote:
I know people have been dumping on him, me especially, since he got here, because of the way he got here, and now that Trax is getting bumped so Peterson can show off his prize bobo and show us all that the Kazmir deal was SO smart, but still you have to feel for the poor schmuck.

He could have won us over, or had me pop an embolism at least, by pitching fabulously, of course, but then he's not the one who traded himself for Kazmir, and he's only as good as he is, which hasn't been half -bad. I feel sorry for the guy, though I despise the arrogance of the organization that is continually soiling itself to show us how smart they were and how dumb us fans were to complain about the deal of last July.

Poor Victor Innameonly. Who was that character in Al Capp, with the black cloud following him where ever he went?


I hear ya.
i think Im beginnig to understand where your coming from bret.
Cause I treat the front office/managment and the monkeys in the blue and orange uniforms as two different animals.
If they are stuck on the Kazmir factor and allow it to dictate decisions at this point, they are fools.

KC
Aug 29 2005 04:16 PM

>>>If they are stuck on the Kazmir factor<<<

That's a big IF. I always have and still have trouble believing in all that
fool the fans stuff. This team is knocking on playoffs door, they ain't
thinking about Kazmir. Anyone who thinks that decisions are made
to cover up the Kazmir a year later are drinking from that delusional
dupe Johnny Lunchbucket beer pitcher that went warm and flat about
five years ago.

MFS62
Aug 29 2005 05:17 PM

I think the interesting thing about the Zambrano VS Traschell choice is that Zambrano has been quoted recently that he has no problem going to the bullpen for the good of the team. And Traschell has been quoted as saying that he prefers to start.
Yet the are being put into roles that they may not be comfortable/ productive in.

Curious.

Later

Bret Sabermetric
Aug 29 2005 05:41 PM

"five years ago."

Uh, that would be about the time the Mets entered The Toilet Zone, right, Kase ? That's when you first got sick of hearing it?

KC
Aug 29 2005 05:50 PM

Don't Kase me. I'm not doing this, it's old and dumb. Who do you think you're
fooling? I'm sorry the Mets broke your heart, move on, stop listening to talk
radio so much. Go watch NESN, the Sawx are on ... Kaz pitches tomorrow.

smg58
Aug 29 2005 05:55 PM

I think it's a little too easy to read ulterior motives into every questionable decision the team makes. It could just be that Randolph went with his gut, even if his gut disagrees with all of ours.

I've said before that I like Zambrano and feel bad for him, and this only makes me feel worse. I also feel bad for Trachsel, too, because he doesn't deserve this. But like I've also said before, the decision is made, and we have to root for it to be the right one. Or at least for Zambrano to do well.

smg58
Aug 29 2005 05:56 PM

Oh, and who the hell is Ed Bouchee?

Bret Sabermetric
Aug 29 2005 05:58 PM

OK, then, for anyone other than KC: are you guys (and gals) all thinking that the Kazmir deal no longer enters the Mets' thinking about Zambrano? Everyone's cool with the deal now, it's ancient history, everyone has moved on totally beyond that framework? When Willie and Peterson and Minaya make decisions about the rotation, about who to re-sign, about who to send down to triple A--you're all certain that Kazmir is zero part of that thinking process, sub- or un- or wholly consciously?

Cause if you are then my old pal Kase is corrrect, and I'm just flapping my gums in the wind, and no one wants to see that, I know.

MFS62
Aug 29 2005 05:59 PM

I'm not sure you want to be Ed Bouchee. When he was with another team (Cubs?) I believe the lefty hitting first baseman was involved with a sex scandal. May have been with a minor.

Later

ScarletKnight41
Aug 29 2005 06:00 PM

FWIW, I don't think that Minaya and Randolph are thinking about Kazmir at this point. They weren't around for that transaction, and I doubt they're losing any sleep over it.

Johnny Dickshot
Aug 29 2005 06:01 PM

Bouchee: Burly lefthanded-hitting first baseman with bad hands and a prolonged sophomore slump, selected by the Mets in the expansion draft. Bouchee had finished second to Philadelphia teammate Jack Sanford in 1957 NL Rookie-of-the-Year voting when he slugged 17 home runs and was third in the league with a .394 on-base percentage but hadn’t smelled those numbers since. He lost his starting job in Philadelphia, was dealt to the Cubs in 1960 and flamed out of baseball after hitting 161 with the '62 Mets.

Here's a dangerous idea: Trachsel for Milton Bradley!

KC
Aug 29 2005 06:03 PM

What ever happened to having six decent starters as a good problem to have.
Trax gave the papers a few good quotes and the message boards/talk show
hosts/papers ran with it. I feel bad for both players for different reasons.

There's no way in hell that Willie and Omar are making starting pitching moves
with Kazmir on their minds.

Bret Sabermetric
Aug 29 2005 06:04 PM

Bouchee got into all that Pee Wee Herman/Michael Jackson stuff while he was a Phillie, not a Cub.

Willets Point
Aug 29 2005 06:14 PM

Milton Bradley? What happened to your hard-on for Ray Durham?

Bret Sabermetric
Aug 29 2005 06:29 PM

These stats could belong to twin sons of the same mother (who of course was in labor for about 8 1/2 years)

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6752
and
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=5917

The same w-l record (but Kaz is pitching for the lowly DRs, while Victor's with a con-ten-duh), same ERA, but look at them peripherals, especially the k/9IP stats.

The other thing I notice, while you're all raving about Zambrano's terrific year, is how this is the same old crap he's always been throwing: only difference I see here is that somehow Peterson seems to have taught him how to lose. Other than that, I don';t see a difference between this year and the VZ of years past, the poor doofus. Only now, he's catching heat for it.

If you consider me groaning softly (from KC's box at Shea a few weeks ago during the immortal Zambrano-Zambrano matchup) to be "heat."

Bret Sabermetric
Aug 29 2005 06:49 PM

from baseballlibrary.com:

Bouchee peaked in his rookie 1957 season, batting .293 with 17 HR and 76 RBI and finishing a distant second to teammate Jack Sanford in the Rookie of the Year Award voting. The husky lefthanded hitter was a Brave-killer, hitting 11 of his first 41 homers against Milwaukee. "I hit Warren Spahn and Lew Burdette like I owned them," Bouchee later recalled. "But I couldn't touch Bob Buhl. He had that herky-jerky motion and I couldn't hit him with a paddle." Troubles with the law (specifically, untoward encounters with young girls) forced Bouchee to miss the first three months of the 1958 season. He posted another good year in 1959, but slumped with the lowly Cubs after a four-player deal sent him to the Windy City in May 1960. Selected by the Mets in the 1962 expansion draft, Bouchee spent one season with the new franchise, playing sparingly behind fan favorite Marv Throneberry and 38-year-old Gil Hodges. He was sent to the minors in 1963 and quit baseball soon after, frustrated by what he saw as a misguided strategy of padding the roster with over-the-hill stars rather than developing young talent. (JGR)

Hmm, I seem to share with Ed Bouchee the feeling that the Mets aren't interested in developing young talent, though old Ed's definition of "young talent" and mine may not quite jive.

Nymr83
Aug 29 2005 06:59 PM

]OK, then, for anyone other than KC: are you guys (and gals) all thinking that the Kazmir deal no longer enters the Mets' thinking about Zambrano?


I wish i could say that, but i've seen them do this before, play a guy not because he is the best option but because of who he once was or was traded for.
I for one would bench a guy the day after aquiring him if it helped the team.

Rotblatt
Aug 29 2005 07:19 PM

I completely believe that the Mets were thinking about Black Friday this off season when they signed Benson, and I don't think it's much of a stretch to think that if they let two stupid trades dictate whom they sign in the offseason, they'd let the same two stupid trades influence their starting rotation.

I don't think it's the be-all, end-all, but what other reason would we have for giving Zambrano a starting job over Trachsel? Trachsel's been a better pitcher than Zambrano since Zambrano made the bigs. I mean, this is Zambrano's best year as a starter so far (4.07 ERA, 1.42 WHIP, 5.42 K/9, 1.33 K/BB) and it's WORSE than Trachsel's career average (4.21 ERA, 1.37 WHIP, 6.07 K/9, 1.89 K/BB). Furthermore, Trachs' one start was better than any single start Zambrano has had this season.

If you ask me, our options are 1) Willie and/or Omar are fucking retarded, 2) Willie &/or Omar know something we don't (possibly coming from Peterson) or 3) that the Wilpons are afraid of the media backlash should Zambrano get removed from the rotation.

I think the trade for Ishii played a similar role in the decision to demote Seo despite his superb performance filling in--and in the decision to give Ishii so much rope. I mean, we gave something up for Ishii, so we might as well get as much value for him as possible.

AND I think anyone who is evaluating the success of the Kazmir trade based on Kazmir's first season in the bigs is being far too premature. Like Bret shows, it's a push right now, and Kazmir's only 21. I think it's incredibly obvious who has more upside.

Johnny Dickshot
Aug 29 2005 07:39 PM

]Milton Bradley? What happened to your hard-on for Ray Durham?


Hey -- Durham was the best second baseman in that series we just lost 2 of 3 in. I have no idea why he's still a Giant.

Bradley is on special -- probably goes to any team that can bear to have him. But since a trade will insult his game and force him to refocus, I'm sure he'll respond with a sick 30-day rampage thast will carry the tyeam lucky enough to have him at that point into the playoffs.

Otherwise, it's Operation Shutdown in LA.

Johnny Dickshot
Aug 29 2005 07:56 PM

]what other reason would we have for giving Zambrano a starting job over Trachsel?


For argument's sake, you can make several.

1) Zamby has better "stuff." I don't necessarily believe in stuff over results, but if this were a gunfight, and bullets were pure physical talent, you'd better choose Zambrano.

2) Age/upside/future: Traxx is 4 years older and, as someone who believes in the numbers ought to know, unlikely to have a better season than the one he had 1, 2 or 3 years ago. Zambrano might still improve: Guys such as Lieter, Reed and Trachsel himself really had their best years in their early 30s.

3) Cheaper.

4) "My guy." Gary Cohen talks about this one, but it's the idea that WWSB is a guy likely to reward those whom he knows and trusts. It's like playing softball with the same doofuses who show up week after week, only to slide them aside when the guy who never shows up suddenly fiund the time at the playoffs. I know, this is weak, and Traxxx wasn't sitting out on purpose, but his best years were with a previous administration.

5) Trade value: Trachsel's nearly evaporated with the dreaded back injury, only to spike with a great start. It'll likely fall from here.

Nymr83
Aug 29 2005 08:16 PM

]Otherwise, it's Operation Shutdown in LA.


I hope we never have another player who would pull an "operation shutdown." i don't think we've had any recently except for rickey.

Willets Point
Aug 29 2005 08:18 PM

Johnny Dickshot wrote:

5) Trade value: Trachsel's nearly evaporated with the dreaded back injury, only to spike with a great start. It'll likely fall from here.


Good point. Bret is always reminding us that the Mets should have moved Piazza while his trade values was high. This has got to be a similar situation. Then again, the Mets are just moving Trax to the bullpen not another club, so they fail in that regard too.

Rotblatt
Aug 29 2005 08:27 PM

1-3 are all reasonable arguments for why you'd give Zambrano a longer contract that Trachsel, but we're in a penant race now, and we should be putting the pitcher out there who gives us the best chance to win. For all his "stuff" Zambrano throughout his career has been less effective than Trachsel, and despite over a year under Peterson's tutelage, is putting up roughly the same numbers as he has in the past. Do we REALLY expect dramatic improvement in his next four starts?

As for number 4, I agree with you that that's a weak reason. It's also a pretty good bet that it plays a big role in Wilie's thinking. Which is probably why Valent is still down in Norfolk, too. This is reason #271 why WWSB is retarded.

And for 5, I seriously doubt that anyone in management thinks Trachsel will turn into a pumpkin soon. Although that would explain why we're only trying to get Olerud in exchange for him.

Frayed Knot
Aug 29 2005 08:40 PM

or 6) that they're "choosing" pitchers based on past performance vs particular opponents.
I don't necc agree with that since it's all based on small sample sizes but it's something and it's apparantly part of their thinking.




And can we please have a discussion involving Zambrano without re-arguing the Kaz/Zam trade as if there are people here who supported it at the time and still are carrying a torch for it's merit.
Argue that he should be dumped tomorrow, argue that he should be shot at dawn, argue that he should be sent to Brooklyn without his dinner, but at least choose a subject to argue where someone is disagreeing with you.

metsmarathon
Aug 29 2005 08:48 PM

while we are shooting for hte playoffs this year, it would make little sense for those bullets to strike us in our own foot, and doing harm to a pitcher (such as by sending him to the minors or the bullpen, or the bench) we have control over for next year (longer? i forget) and in whom we believe there to be upside and in whom we have a future financial investment, in exchange for a pitcher who may not repeat his dazzling return appearance, is at an age where he has only downside, and whom we can cut lose at the end of this year.

the smart move for both this seaason (zambrano being more of a given than a just-off-injury, and you never know how well that will turn out, trachsel) and the future (zambrano being a more likely contributor either as player or tradeable commmodity than trachsel, beyond this one start)

Nymr83
Aug 29 2005 09:12 PM

peak of trade value? what exactly are you going to get for him right now? whatever it is would have to clear waivers (or not be on a 40 at all)

Edgy DC
Aug 29 2005 09:39 PM

]I hope we never have another player who would pull an "operation shutdown." i don't think we've had any recently except for rickey.


How soon they forget. We had the guy who coined the term!

Willets Point
Aug 29 2005 09:49 PM

Edgy DC wrote:
]I hope we never have another player who would pull an "operation shutdown." i don't think we've had any recently except for rickey.


How soon they forget. We had the guy who coined the term!


Who dat? I'm not familiar with the term.

Edgy DC
Aug 29 2005 10:09 PM

Operation Shutdown

metirish
Aug 29 2005 10:15 PM

Great memory Edgy, hard to believe that any team gave Bell a two year $9M contract after being with the Mets.

Zvon
Aug 30 2005 01:08 AM

These quotes are from the NY Daily News:

[Trachsel's Out-Adam Rubin]

...Zambrano has a lifetime 2-0 record and 0.82 ERA in 3 appearences at Dolphins Stadium. Randolph said he had challanged Zambrano before his last start, and that Zambrano responded by limiting Arizona to one run in 8 innings.....
....The GM (Omar) added that the decision was left to Randolph and pitching coach Rick Peterson........

[ As rotation spins, Steve sent off Trach- Lisa Olsen]

Those who prefer a bit of nostalgia and rational thought with their box score must be wondering what the Mets manager and pitching coach are mixing with their breakfast cereal. Trachsel is the clubs second most senior player (behind Mike Piazza, another old timer who's being shown the door); Trachsel's diligent work to return to the big leagues just five months after back surgery (doctors expected him to be sidelined all season) should count for afew bonus points. And then there's his brilliant two-hitter over eight innings Trachsel tossed against the giants, whatever thats worth.
Those who dare peek beyond what is already a frenetic wild card race will understand why Zanbrano gets the ball against the Marlins, a team just one game ahead of the Mets in the NL east. Zambrano is a sharp angle of these New Mets, and there are considerable ego's and reputations relying on his success. The Mets dealt prize prospect Scott Kazmir for Zambrano in 2004, a trade many believe bears the fingerprints of Peterson, the Mets pitching coach. And there's Zambrano's lifetime 2-0 record at Dolphin Stadium, as well as his superb last start, whatever thats worth.........
________________________________________________

Im not saying anything here, just passing this on.

I will say that Kazmir should be a mute point.

He had a big head that has yet to grow into his talent, and that wasnt going to happen on the big stage in NYC any time soon.
His numbers so far in the bigs reflect that, no matter who he is pitching for. He may someday mature to be the pitcher he can potentially be, but the Mets wanted an experienced big league arm, they wanted it now, and they didnt like Kazmirs attitude at the time. If he ever makes that list of top ten worst Met trades ever, Ill eat another one of my Met hats. I believe he was no big loss.

(I did trade back for him in EAsMVP/Baseball2005 playing in owners mode, and he did win over 20 games as a Met starter, but I also play 2nd base on that team and won the rookie of the year award. Pedro went 28-1. Wish in one hand and rub pine tar in the other.)

Bret Sabermetric
Aug 30 2005 02:59 AM

Frayed Knot wrote:
And can we please have a discussion involving Zambrano without re-arguing the Kaz/Zam trade as if there are people here who supported it at the time and still are carrying a torch for it's merit.


From my original post: "the arrogance of the organization that is continually soiling itself to show us how smart they were and how dumb us fans were to complain about the deal of last July".

KC
Aug 30 2005 05:38 AM

>>>arrogance of the organization that is continually soiling itself to show us how smart they were and how dumb us fans were to complain about the deal of last July<<<

I guess I have trouble relating to the anger level, the huge dissapointment
factor, the dimay over front office imcompetence, the feeling of them trying
to dupe and fool the fans? The Hardy Boys had more compelling cases.
The Kazmir Cover-up, in bookstores today. And be sure to wear a
disguise when you check out, they're monitoring who purchases the book.

MFS62
Aug 30 2005 05:40 AM

Johnny Dickshot wrote:
5) Trade value: Trachsel's nearly evaporated with the dreaded back injury, only to spike with a great start. It'll likely fall from here.


Yesterday, there was an item on ESPN Radio that Buster Olney is reporting the the Mets and Red Sox are into heavy negotiations over a deal involving Traschell.

Later

Bret Sabermetric
Aug 30 2005 07:02 AM

I wish KC and FK would get it together--did we denounce the Kazmir/Zambrano deal with a single voice, or do we have

KC wrote:
trouble relating to the anger level, the huge dissapointment
factor, the dimay over front office imcompetence, the feeling of them trying
to dupe and fool the fans? The Hardy Boys had more compelling cases.
The Kazmir Cover-up, in bookstores today. And be sure to wear a
disguise when you check out, they're monitoring who purchases the book.


I'm confused. KC seems to argue that some of us might have rashly expressed mild disapproval at the tme but quickly came around to seeing Peterson's abiding wisdom in all matters relating to pitching*, while FK seems to think that of course we all voiced vehement derision on the deal, but are struggling to maintain an even keel as we continue to labor under the heavy burden that the deal continues to bear down on us.**





* heavy dose of exaggeration-for-effect here. Do not take literally. Do not operate heavy machinery while reading this.

** read previous direction carefully. Do not argue with BS about literal content--take only for general import.

KC
Aug 30 2005 07:27 AM

I ain't really arguing anything. I think the callers, posters, and writers who
think that the decisions made by a baseball team, such as who the sixth
starter is going to be (really, c'mon this isn't nuclear arms or continental
famine) base these decisions on trying to cover up past mistakes (actual,
unrealized, or imagined) sound like a bunch of delusional paranoids who
nine times out of ten prolly have nothing better to do than pot stir, seek
attention, and beat dead horses. If I'm wrong, in this case, then I of course
apologize and recognize that you are a rare exception. *

* all callers, posters, and writers - no one in particular.

Edgy DC
Aug 30 2005 08:11 AM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Aug 30 2005 03:02 PM

This should go in the "So You Think You're a Sportswriter" thread, as Lisa Lisa and Cult Jam seems as off-"Trach" as any of the Mets braintrust.

]Those who prefer a bit of nostalgia and rational thought with their box score must be wondering what the Mets manager and pitching coach are mixing with their breakfast cereal. Trachsel is the clubs second most senior player (behind Mike Piazza, another old timer who's being shown the door); Trachsel's diligent work to return to the big leagues just five months after back surgery (doctors expected him to be sidelined all season) should count for afew bonus points. And then there's his brilliant two-hitter over eight innings Trachsel tossed against the giants, whatever thats worth.


The first two of those are pretty-much irrelevant. We're in a pair of playoff races here.

The last is the real argument, but she treats it as the least part of a greater argument.

]Those who dare peek beyond what is already a frenetic wild card race will understand why Zanbrano gets the ball against the Marlins, a team just one game ahead of the Mets in the NL east. Zambrano is a sharp angle of these New Mets, and there are considerable ego's and reputations relying on his success.


Well, she gets points for an interesting metaphor with that sharp angle business, but then she loses a decade's worth of respect from MFS62 by sticking one of those egregious apostrophe plurals in there with ego's.

]The Mets dealt prize prospect Scott Kazmir for Zambrano in 2004, a trade many believe bears the fingerprints of Peterson, the Mets pitching coach. And there's Zambrano's lifetime 2-0 record at Dolphin Stadium, as well as his superb last start, whatever thats worth.........


Apart from dealing innuendo in lieu of fact she tosses off legitimate baseball concerns as an afterthought, when, if she wanted to slam the Mets more fairly, would analyze whether that lifetime record and that "superb" last start is really better to bet on than Trachsel's even more superb last start.

And, of course, this shouldn't be framed as exclusively Trachsel versus Zambrano. Seo has bullpen experience, but certainly seems too red hot to move right now, but Kris Benson seems hurt and Tom Glavine seems old.

And, of course, a six-man rotation remains a legit alternative.

Elster88
Aug 30 2005 08:20 AM

At what point does Willie stop worrying about how Trachsel feels about missing a lot of time between starts, and how Zambrano will deal with his move to the bullpen, and say to them: "STFU, stop talking to the media, and pitch when I tell you. I am your father!!"

Maybe he's already done this.

_____________________________
This post was made under the posting designation 170) Barry Lyons

Edgy DC
Aug 30 2005 08:35 AM

Not a bad strategy.

I'm starting to glean that Lisa O's work was hastily transcribed, rather than cut and pasted, and so the punctuation errata weren't her own.

Bret Sabermetric
Aug 30 2005 09:04 AM

Generally, a mistake to come down too heavily on daily journalists for typos, which are rarely of their making, as are the (often inflammatory)heds to (comparatively benign) articles.

Zvon
Aug 30 2005 02:51 PM

Edgy DC wrote:

.... but then she loses a decade's worth of respect from MFS62 by sticking one of those egregious apostrophe plurals in there with ego's.


LMAO :lol: :lol: :lol:

That wasnt a cut and paste job. I actually had to copy it by hand.

Thats more than likely my mistake there. :lol: sorry.