THE CRANE POOL FORUM thecranepool.net (.com)


Forum Home

Master Index of Archived Threads


UU To the Phillies

MFS62
Jun 08 2005 05:22 PM

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2080392


Comments?
Later

Elster88
Jun 08 2005 05:31 PM

I didn't realize Polanco was worth that much.

Johnny Dickshot
Jun 08 2005 06:07 PM

This'll shirley cause chatter to rise over how the Mets will solve their 2nd base situation, and parallels between the teams situations will be drawn ad nauseum before anyone points out that Chase Utley is actually more akin to David Wright than to Cairo, Matsui or Jeff Keppinger.

Yancy Street Gang
Jun 08 2005 07:56 PM

Mets announcers saying that the Phillies released Jose Offerman, and the Mets have signed him and sent him to Norfolk.

Iubitul
Jun 08 2005 07:57 PM

You mean Eric Offerman, don't you?

Yancy Street Gang
Jun 08 2005 08:01 PM

Nope, it was Jose

Iubitul
Jun 08 2005 08:03 PM

Oh - His name is Jose?

Really?

I thought his name was Eric.

It seems that every day I see E Offerman in the boxscore...




sorry...

Johnny Dickshot
Jun 08 2005 08:16 PM

buh-dum-Ching!

seawolf17
Jun 08 2005 09:13 PM

I like the deal, but largely because it means Chase Utley becomes that much more valuable to my fantasy team.

I do think Ugie will help the Phils.

Rotblatt
Jun 08 2005 09:23 PM

Nice move for Detroit. Polanco's a solid, versatile player. He should do well for them.

I don't think I'd trade him for Uggie, but it will probably help the Phillies pen . . .

Frayed Knot
Jun 08 2005 10:49 PM

]Comments?



Two comments:

1) Good trade for the Phightin's. I did think it would take more than that to pry U^3 away from Motown ... except that accepting the salary prolly has something to do with it.

and

B) Even if I underestimated the price it took to get him, I feel justified in being sickened by listening to Met fans who GROSSLY OVERestimated what it would take. I've heard NYM fans proposing deals that offered packages like 'Cameron/Humber/+ ...' or 'Petit/Diaz/+', etc.

Good lord people he's a freekin' reliever!

smg58
Jun 09 2005 09:25 AM

The loser in this deal is Urbina. He was on a roll when Percival was out, and there are a lot of teams in the league for whom Urbina would have been an upgrade as the closer. The Phillies aren't one of them.

Are the Mets one of them? Maybe, but the team would not have benefited from that kind of controversy. He's about the same level as Looper, and while they had a good working arrangement in Florida, that was before Looper ever became a full-time closer. At least with Graves, Looper has no reason to watch his back.

Polanco fills a need for Detroit -- they still have a couple of positions not being filled by major league level players -- but I can't believe somebody who really needed a closer wouldn't have offered more.

I think the deal is break-even, unless Wagner goes down at some point.

Elster88
Jun 09 2005 10:28 AM

]I feel justified in being sickened by listening to Met fans who GROSSLY OVERestimated what it would takeIf
Haha, that's true. If you were to listen to Met fans, then Cameron should've been traded for Sturtze a long time ago. I daresay one or two people on this forum were looking to trade Cameron for Urbina, though I don't feel like searching what's left of the archives to be mean.

Johnny Dickshot
Jun 09 2005 10:58 AM

Just so we all remember properly, I had suggested Cameron for Urbina AND Dmitri Young OR Carlos Pena, back before we went and got Mientkiewicz.

As suspected, Minky has not provided the O we need at 1B, where Young might have. Pena OTOH, has been worse than Minky but I submit that was less probable.

Rotblatt
Jun 09 2005 11:37 AM

I think I may have suggested getting a package including a reliever in return for Cameron, although I think my suggestion was based on the Byrnes for Cam rumor. I felt Byrnes wasn't nearly enough and wanted to toss in a Calero something.

That wouldn't have worked out very well for us, as Calero's been on the DL and Byrnes has sucked/been unlucky.

Speaking of unlucky, our very own Doug Mientkiewicz and Mike Piazza have been unlucky/slow this year. Check it out: http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/freaky-batting-leaderboards/

Interesting article--the relevant part basically says that based on their forumla, Mientkiewicz's average should really be closer to .276 than to .205 and Piazz's closer to .324 than .257. The author notes, however, that due to Piazza's slow speed, that number can't be expected to improve as dramatically as you'd think. He makes no mention of Dougie, who while not being as slow as Mike, is definitely not fast.

Oh, and I, for one, have been surprised by Dougie's ineffectiveness. I sincerely thought he'd be better than his career average this year. And I prattled endlessly about it, too. sigh.

I suppose he still has 2/3 of a season to make me feel a little better about my predicting powers, though . . .

Frayed Knot
Jun 09 2005 02:13 PM

btw; my comments about hearing really bad trade proposals for U^3 weren't from this board. Mostly this idiocy comes from talk radio denizens who seemed mostly to be under the impression that swapping 2 or 3 regulars plus several top prospects for Urbina would result in us getting the better of the deal.


Wow that grass is green over yonder!



Also, several of this morning's papers mentioned that the Mets had been in discussions w/Detroit for Urbina - although it's not known how far those talks got or who - if anyone - was involved.

Rotblatt
Jun 09 2005 02:33 PM

Yeah, I saw that too, Frayed.

I'm dissapointed that we felt we really needed a right-handed reliever so much that we were actively shopping for one. Either our boys haven't been paying attention or they don't think Bell, Hernandez & Heilman will be able to keep it up . . . Or they're building a pool of strong relievers that we can deal from down the road. I hope it's the latter option.

Newsday reports that DeJean will be in the set-up role--7th & 8th innings. I suspect Willie's going to use him in blowouts first, though, especially since Willie & I are thinking along the same lines: "Manager Willie Randolph suggested that Graves might benefit from a tuneup at Triple-A, but Graves said: "I want to pitch here. It's been a while since I've been in the minor leagues.""

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/mets/ny-spmside094296820jun09,0,6944613.story?coll=ny-mets-print

Elster88
Jun 09 2005 04:55 PM

That's all well and good, but if he wants to pitch for the big club he better perform like he belongs there.

Frayed Knot
Jun 10 2005 10:22 AM

Nice first outing for U^3: 0.1 IP, 4 ER, 2 H, 2 BBs

he came in to start the 9th w/a 6 run lead and proceeded to go:
K - BB - 2R-HR - 1B - BB

forcing the Phils to relieve him w/Wagner, who allowed both of those inherited to score and brought Hank Blalock to the plate as the tying run ... before he grounded out to end the game.

seawolf17
Jun 10 2005 10:31 AM

They actually traded for him to create more save situations for Wagner. If he keeps that up, I'll be fine with that.

Edgy DC
Jun 10 2005 11:01 AM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 10 2005 11:51 AM

Jon Heyman, getting it but not getting it, on May 31.

For all the maligning of the bullpen...

(By the likes of you, Jon)

... the Mets actually lost Sunday for only the third time in 21 games when they led after six innings.

(Yeah, facts are awkward things, though how does that compare to other teams?)

Braden Looper has converted 10 straight save chances and Roberto Hernandez has been dependable in an eighth-inning role.

Damn skippy.

Still, this figures to be the area the Mets address at the trading deadline, with Dae-Sung Koo proving a suspect lefty specialist, Mike DeJean seemingly on the hot seat and another closer-type arm needed.

(What the hell is a closer-type arm? What is with the notion that a rich team should stockpile their pen with overpaid guys that used to be closers elsewhere?)

The Braves figure to be among the teams shopping, too, so the Mets should have considerable competition for Tampa Bay's Danys Baez, Detroit's Ugueth Urbina and Oakland's Octavio Dotel.

(Three current or former closers. How susrprising. And he's still got that bee in his bonnet about Danys Baez, who has blown six of 13 save opprtunities, and has a 16:22 strikeout/walk ratio. I don't want a pen full of former closers on the way down. I want one full of future closers on the way up.)

What the Mets will enjoy is a surplus of starters, another trading-deadline commodity. Steve Trachsel hopes to return by mid-July and Aaron Heilman is waiting to return to the rotation, though the Mets believe he can be a capable reliever in the short term, too. That means the Mets will be able to dangle Kaz Ishii, Trachsel and Heilman to other teams.

They're able to "dangle" Ishii and Heilman now, but the redundancy is helping their pen and giving them insurance. The idea that they'll get value for Steve Trachsel, who'll hopefully come of the disabled list two weeks before the trading deadline, is wishful thinking.)

Victor Zambrano doesn't figure to be going anywhere, though. After all, the Mets could only get a fraction of Scott Kazmir in return. The farm system isn't stocked with prospects, but there's enough to put together a package.

The farm system is fine as long as you don't start packaging valuable prospects for a reliever you don't need.

Don't worry: There doesn't appear to be anyone with the ability to have a Kazmir-like impact within the next few years - with the possible exception of 2004 first-round Philip Humber - to regret shipping out.

(First of all Snarky, Kazmir hasn't really had any impact yet, except a scapegoating one. I didn't like the trade at the time and like it even less now, but that doesn't make Kazmir Sandy Koufax. He's been hit-and-miss. Second of all, the idea that nobody meets the standards of a first round pitcher, except perhaps another first round pitcher, is sort of a shallow perspective. Third, I can think of about ten prospects I'd hate to see go in order to get veteran relief help, without really trying.

I'm supposed to cry about trading Kazmir for Zambrano but you don't think I should regret trading Lastings Milledge for Danys Baez? Are youse out of your mind?

In his defense, the Mets did add another "closer-type arm" in Graves.)

sharpie
Jun 10 2005 11:06 AM

He also mentions Dotel who, I read, might be out of action for this season AND next season.

seawolf17
Jun 10 2005 11:19 AM

You should blast today's Heyman piece; he compares himself to a 14-time Sportswriter of the Year winner.

Edgy DC
Jun 10 2005 11:32 AM

Dotel's a mystery. He's seen three specialists -- including Lewis Yocum and James Freakin' Andrews -- and they've all said he doesn't need surugery. The A's are put off that he keeps seeking more opionons when the news has been good.

That's the last I heard, anyway. Is somebody planning on cutting him?

sharpie
Jun 10 2005 11:40 AM

I think it's if he's cut he's gone that long.

Rotblatt
Jun 10 2005 11:44 AM

Dotel's out for the season, but I don't think that came out until about a week ago.

If Graves starts pitching well, the sports writers will probably start saying using phrases like "overhauled" and "dramatically improved" to describe our pen and credit Graves, ignoring the fact that our pen has been solid since we called up Bell and pretty darn good since we moved Heilman in there.

If Graves pans out, we're going to be in nice shape at the trading deadline . . . A surplus of solid relief pitchers & solid starting pitchers, not to mention a extra outfielder (provided everyone stays healthy) & second baseman (provided Matsui continues his improvement at the plate). I'm not saying we should necessarily dip into any of that, but should someone great get put on the block, we might just have enough chips to snare him without giving up a Milledge, Humber or Petit.

Our only real hole for this year is 1B, and, if we're serious about competing, we'd probably need a #2 starting pitcher. Personally, I'd like to see if Heilman could fit the bill, but Willie seems to like him in the pen for now.

seawolf17
Jun 10 2005 11:44 AM

He had the surgery the other day. He wants to be back by Opening Day 2006; apparently, word is that the surgery went really well:

A'S REPORT
Dotel's surgery goes well; he could pitch Opening Day
Susan Slusser

Thursday, June 9, 2005

Washington -- Octavio Dotel's "Tommy John'' surgery was so successful, the reliever said, that renowned arm specialist Dr. James Andrews told him that he probably will be able to pitch in the majors on Opening Day 2006, easily six to 12 months sooner than projected.

"Dr. Andrews said, 'Hey, you're going to be fine. If you were throwing 94- 95 mph before this, you're going to be really good now,' '' Dotel told The Chronicle a day after having a new ulnar collateral ligament put into his right elbow. "He said, 'If you do all your rehab, you'll be pretty much ready for spring training.' ''

Dotel said that a tendon was taken from his leg and it was so long that Andrews was able to wrap it three times around the elbow, which is unusual. In addition, Andrews took out two large calcifications.

"I'm telling you, they were big,'' said Dotel, who will start rehab a week from today.

Dotel is upset that he was second-guessed for electing to have the surgery after four doctors, including Andrews, advised him to rehab the elbow instead. Dotel felt he was portrayed as if he were shirking his duty by going against the recommendations, but he knew he could not pitch with any consistency because the tremendous pain he was having essentially prevented him from using his slider. The fact that Andrews removed the calcified chunks makes Dotel feel vindicated.

"I asked the doctor, 'Did I do the right thing?' and he said, 'Yes, you did,' '' Dotel said. "The things people said ticked me off -- why would I have surgery unless I had to, especially with no contract for next year? The last thing I wanted to do was stop playing, but I had no choice, I had to get this straightened out.''

A reason the doctors advised against surgery was that MRI exams showed that things might not go smoothly, but, Dotel said, "Once he got in there, everything was different from the MRI. When he saw that, he said I could be pitching in April.''

Edgy DC
Jun 10 2005 11:50 AM
Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jun 10 2005 12:14 PM

I missed that. Last I heard is that Andrews gave Dotel a pass.

Still, Heyman should have known the guy was mysteriously smarting and going on the DL at the time of the writing.

seawolf17
Jun 10 2005 11:56 AM

Heyman's not one to be much on top of current events. He enjoys the past.